Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is this organ overpriced?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by toodles View Post
    As a simple matter of business, the selling price on ebay is not at all reflective of what a used organ from a dealer should sell for: dealers normally provide delivery, setup, and a warranty, and their expertise in all this which all has a cost to the dealer, which he must recover in the sale.
    Oh, we definitely agree here. Ebay is useful for giving a sort of raw value if you will, just for the instrument itself... almost as a raw commodity. As you observe, buying from a dealer means paying especially for warranty and the markup that he needs in order to stay in business. This is why it's so useful to be able to do moving, repairs etc. yourself - you can get much more instrument for your money that way.
    Nobody loves me but my mother,
    And she could be jivin' too...

    --BB King

    Comment


      #17
      My idea of an organ's worth depends on whether I'm buying it or selling it! If someone tells me a church is trying to get rid of their 25-year-old organ and they want to know what I'd pay for it, I'll probably say that I'll haul it away for free as long as it's in reasonably decent condition. I might even make a $100 donation to the church, but I can't afford to have much tied up in it because it might take me months or years to find a buyer for it.

      OTOH.... I usually have a few nice used Allen and Rodgers organs in the shop for sale, most of them 15 to 25 years old. Like Arie, I see no need to deal in the cheaper stuff or anything without AGO specs, though I don't mind re-selling a good pre-1990 model if it's in perfect working order. Every organ we take in for resale will be thoroughly gone over, all faults corrected, everything cleaned up and shined up like new. We sometimes spend several days and invest in hundreds of dollars worth of boards and parts getting one ready to sell.

      I will need to get several thousand dollars for one of these when I deliver it to a church, install it with a set of re-furbished speakers, get it set up and voiced, give the organist some instruction, and warranty it for 90 days. I'll obviously get more for a really nice one with a complete capture action, multiple audio channels, and a deluxe console than I will for an entry-level model with speakers in the console and blind presets. Newer ones bring a little more than older ones, but brand name is more important than age, it seems. Can't get much for any brand whose builder is out of business.

      So, that's my stance on organ pricing. I have no qualms about selling an organ for $5K or more even if I got it "free" because we work really hard to get it brought in, restored to good condition, and set up in the church just like a dealer would when selling a new one. After all, organ service is our business and we won't be able to stay in business if we don't make a living!

      What I've said here really has little to do with the original question on this thread, but we seem to have drifted OT quite a bit. I'm enjoying all the comments here and appreciate every opinion expressed. This is just my own!
      John
      ----------
      Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
      Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
      Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
      Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


        #18
        Thanks for the feedback everyone; I see that his price, although high, is more reasonable than I thought. It is really too bad that the market is so bad for these older instruments.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by NYCFarmboy View Post
          AV: I'm very aware my opinions are not "liked" by organ resellers. I'm very aware there are exceptions to selling prices. Certainly a quality installation with an appropriate speaker placement would well be worth MUCH more than what these organs sell for on ebay. I'm just giving my opinion based on what I see the organs actually sell for on ebay. I follow ebay as it is a true gauge of what items are quickly sellable for. I give my opinions here based soley on what the ebay price is. I'm sure I'm wrong on some stuff on occasion, but it is just my opinion. I'm only talking about what the market dictates the quick resale price be. sorry.
          I disagree that a 'normal', no reserve, low starting price ebay auction is a 'proper' indicator of the organ market. It is only an indicator of the price that sellers obtain within the ebay way of doing things.

          My reasons for saying this are that on ebay the winning bidder ONLY pays the second-highest bid plus one bid increment amount (i.e., some small predefined amount relative to the bid size). Thus the actual price is set by the second highest bidder and not the auction winner. In reality the auction winner may have been prepared to pay significantly more than the second highest bid for the item (and may have actually put in a substantially higher bid) but was not forced to do so due to the ebay 'automated bidding' auction system. Hence the ebay 'market' price is only as high as the second highest bid (plus increment) rather than what the buyer was truly prepared to pay (i.e prices can be significantly deflated).

          The other problem is that ebay has a fixed time cut off and no further bidding can be conducted after this fixed auction close time, so even if someone wanted to pay more they are prevented from doing so. Some other auction sites offer a 'going, going, gone' method where the end time extends if a late bid is submitted allowing competing bidders to respond and increase their bid. However this is not the ebay way so again prices are deflated.

          Ebay is the worlds biggest garage sale. More fool you if you use this type of ebay auction to sell ANY high value item (unless you want to get rid of it quickly and cheaply).

          If you are going to use ebay to sell a high value item, in order to get a realistic price you need to either set a higher starting price, use an appropriate reserve or use a 'buy it now' or 'make an offer' selling method.

          Whether the $12,500 asking price for the subject organ is reasonable or not remains to be seen. However, I think, the seller (an Allen Dealer) is using ebay 'properly' to sell an item they 'value' by setting the price that they are willing to accept as the start price.
          Last edited by Momboc; 11-09-2010, 08:22 PM.
          My MIDI controlled, module and software driven virtual 'organ' thread is here: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post427320

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Momboc View Post
            In reality the auction winner may have been prepared to pay significantly more than the second highest bid for the item (and may have actually put in a substantially higher bid) but was not forced to do so due to the ebay 'automated bidding' auction system. Hence the ebay 'market' price is only as high as the second highest bid (plus increment) rather than what the buyer was truly prepared to pay (i.e prices can be significantly deflated)..
            Or, in other words, what the buyer was willing to pay was way more than all the other bidders thought to be the true value of the item. I don't see how any individual's valuation of an item, whether high or low, is indicative of it's general worth in the marketplace. That's determine by consensus - in this case, competing bidders.

            Originally posted by Momboc View Post
            The other problem is that ebay has a fixed time cut off and no further bidding can be conducted after this fixed auction close time, so even if someone wanted to pay more they are prevented from doing so.
            Reserve bidding allows you determine how much you're willing to bid and if you make your reserve bid represent what you value the item at in the first place, you don't have to worry about being outbid by someone who values the item less than you do, cutoff or no cutoff.

            One of the criticisms of reserve bidding is that it drives up prices as competing bidders probe for the highest current bid, so an argument might be made that this system is more favorable to seller (and Ebay), than going, going gone.

            Originally posted by Momboc View Post
            If you are going to use ebay to sell a high value item, in order to get a realistic price you need to either set a higher starting price, use an appropriate reserve or use a 'buy it now' or 'make an offer' selling method.

            Perhaps, but that brings us back to the original point that the seller's asking price may not be grounded in market reality.
            -Admin

            Allen 965
            Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
            Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
            Hauptwerk 4.2

            Comment


              #21
              Some good points but none of this changes what I said.

              In an ebay 'auction' the price IS set by the second highest bidder and NOT by the winning/highest bidder - so ebay is a lowest priced auction system and therefore DOES NOT represent the price that a legitimate seller and buyer would agree on if they were conducting the sale under a method where you pay your highest offer.

              However, ebay IS a great way to sell your unused and unwanted junk such as old clothes, books, household items etc. If anyone wants to sell their 'junk' organ cheaply then put it on ebay at a low starting price with no reserve and suffer the consequence of getting a low price.

              As a seller I want the buyer to pay the highest price that they are willing to pay, so for high value items that I sell (such as cars) I prefer to use a 'buy it now' listing. When I get enough watchers I then progressively reduce the asking price until someone bids and wins (at the highest offered price).

              In any case the seller was using Craig's list - and he rejected the OP's lower than asking price offer. I see no problems with this as it is part of the negotiation.
              Last edited by Momboc; 11-10-2010, 05:33 PM.
              My MIDI controlled, module and software driven virtual 'organ' thread is here: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post427320

              Comment

              Working...
              X