Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Recording Organ Music

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Recording Organ Music

    How many of you have attempted to record organ music? My wife and I made our first serious attempts at recording organ video footage earlier this week. She recently bought a new camera which aside from having good video quality actually has quite reasonable audio quality too. In the past my attempts to record the organ have generally required more specialised equipment (thankfully I have a contact with such equipment) so I am rather pleased so far. I haven't tried yet with larger sounds (like adding in the Great reeds for example) but I will attempt to soon hopefully. For those of you who have tried this before, what equipment have you employed for the job?

    Here is a video of a free improvisation I did that afternoon to give an idea of how it came out. Forgive the first twenty-something seconds I take to register the instrument as it was completely spontaneous and I hadn't started with a specific piston combination in mind.


  • #2
    Hi Sathrandur, you dont say what the recording is for. If you are thinking of releasing the recording then you need to get in touch with your friend who has pro equipment.
    The room (Church ?) will be very lively and have lots of early reflections etc. saying all that a good pair of mic's ( Shure sm58 for example ) should give you a good recording. As to mic placement that will depend on the room. In my studio I use Cubase software to record on to and have very good results.

    Derek

    Comment


    • #3
      Honestly, I record mostly for my own enjoyment. Sometimes just to have a record that I really did learn a piece as well. I recorded Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue that afternoon also.

      Sometimes I can't find a recording of a piece done quite to my taste and so I guess I must do it for myself. However I plan in the near future (as I didn't get to it last year) to record a piece I composed last year. If I want to gain any interest in it then I need to give people something to see and hear (I uploaded the score to the IMSLP). Similar concept for Lemare's Concert Fantasia on the Theme 'Hanover', Op.4. There are almost no recordings on CD and no full recordings on YouTube, and I want to see it get some more attention, so someone has to provide a video for the world to see.

      Comment


      • #4
        For personal enjoyment, I don't see anything wrong with this quality. I'd even be happy to put it on a CD for friends and family. It's very audible with no clipping or distortion from what I listened to, so would even suffice for competition or further education auditions I'd say.

        I use a Zoom H1 for my YouTube videos, which sounds pretty much identical to this I'd say.

        What model camera is this?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Derek inthesun View Post
          . saying all that a good pair of mic's ( Shure sm58 for example ) should give you a good recording. As to mic placement that will depend on the room.
          Before spending money, I'd like to point out that the SM58 is unsuitable for 32' stops as it cuts off at 50 hz. This is important for hand holding, as it prevents rumble from hand movements from getting into the recording. Also for floor mounting on a wood supported floor you want to cut at 50 hz without a shock mount, as steps will be picked up . The SM58 is a super cardioid pattern which is especially designed for vocal use near the mouth and not picking up the band behind the vocalist, so IMHO it doesn't provide optimum volume from a distant source.
          I found a used Shure KSM27 condenser mike which has 20 hz response and is a normal cardioid pattern. I'm pleased with the results I'm getting on organ source material, using a camera tripod and shock mount I constructed out of rubber belt material. It does require a mixer or phantom power 48v power supply to boost the signal high enough to go into the line port of a PC. I'm using Ubuntu studio op system on my PC, which comes with Audacity free software which seems to sound okay. Ubuntu studio also has video software installed, I don't have a video capture board yet so I can't evaluate that. My PC has a gigabyte mainboard which is nothing special, and I'm using the mainboard stereo line input.
          Although I'm not playing at the professional level, you may check out the sound of my Hammond H100 in my music room on the Yellow Bird track at inbojat.tumblr.com . The faint screech is the Hammond, not an artifact, and is the reason I haven't made more recordings until I find and eliminate it. (probably a "harp" cap). I'm using an unrestored 1994 Peavey Unity mixer, and the second mike is the best sounding of several $1 to $5 bargain mikes I picked up. I believe three of the bargain mikes are super-cardioid handheld clone mikes, as they have low volume at 8' from the organ speaker but are fine in front of the mouth, which is why in part I don't suggest an SM58. The best sounding alternate mike which is probably cardioid pattern is a $1 bargain I picked up at Electrotex electronics in 1975? and can't be duplicated. Watching television programs like Jubilee or Woodsongs, I don't believe having non-matching left and right mikes is important on assymetric non-symphony recordings. Both use the KSM27 by visual identification for groups that include handheld instruments and singing.
          Last edited by indianajo; 01-02-2015, 06:31 AM.
          city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by indianajo View Post
            Before spending money, I'd like to point out that the SM58 is unsuitable for 32' stops as it cuts off at 50 hz. This is important for hand holding, as it prevents rumble from hand movements from getting into the recording. Also for floor mounting on a wood supported floor you want to cut at 50 hz without a shock mount, as steps will be picked up . The SM58 is a super cardioid pattern which is especially designed for vocal use near the mouth and not picking up the band behind the vocalist, so IMHO it doesn't provide optimum volume from a distant source.
            I found a used Shure KSM27 condenser mike which has 20 hz response and is a normal cardioid pattern. I'm pleased with the results I'm getting on organ source material, using a camera tripod and shock mount I constructed out of rubber belt material. It does require a mixer or phantom power 48v power supply to boost the signal high enough to go into the line port of a PC. I'm using Ubuntu studio op system on my PC, which comes with Audacity free software which seems to sound okay. Ubuntu studio also has video software installed, I don't have a video capture board yet so I can't evaluate that. My PC has a gigabyte mainboard which is nothing special, and I'm using the mainboard stereo line input.
            Although I'm not playing at the professional level, you may check out the sound of my Hammond H100 in my music room on the Yellow Bird track at inbojat.tumblr.com . The faint screech is the Hammond, not an artifact, and is the reason I haven't made more recordings until I find and eliminate it. (probably a "harp" cap). I'm using an unrestored 1994 Peavey Unity mixer, and the second mike is the best sounding of several $1 to $5 bargain mikes I picked up. I believe three of the bargain mikes are super-cardioid handheld clone mikes, as they have low volume at 8' from the organ speaker but are fine in front of the mouth, which is why in part I don't suggest an SM58. The best sounding alternate mike which is probably cardioid pattern is a $1 bargain I picked up at Electrotex electronics in 1975? and can't be duplicated. Watching television programs like Jubilee or Woodsongs, I don't believe having non-matching left and right mikes is important on assymetric non-symphony recordings. Both use the KSM27 by visual identification for groups that include handheld instruments and singing.
            The sm58 is not especially designed for anything in particular, rather it is a good all round mic and that is why I mention it. Nether is it designed just for vocals. Hand held ? , stands and shockmount I think.
            Anyway, I stand by what I said. You would get a great recording with a pair of sm58's.

            Derek

            Comment


            • #7
              Sathrandur,

              Check out the similar thread started yesterday in the Reed Organ Forum: http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?33941

              This question has come around on more than one occasion, so searching the Forum might provide some good results as well. You can also check out MusicianFriend's buying guides on recording here: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/resou...-Guide/m710092, as well as getting a list here: http://thehub.musiciansfriend.com/buying-guides/

              The Shure website also has some recording guides, of course featuring their microphones, but they contain excellent information about polarity, recording patterns, ambiance, etc. The guides are located here: http://cdn.shure.com/publication/upl...rdingsound.pdf, and here: http://blog.shure.com/topics/education/

              I hope these help somewhat. The principles presented will apply to any recording setup, but Shure just happens to provide the information on a beginner's level that is understandable for people like me.

              Michael
              Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
              • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
              • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
              • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

              Comment


              • #8
                One thing I forgot to mention is placement. Mic quality is pretty irrelevant with camcorders, as it's only important to a point. Of course, you want something that doesn't peak and distort, but the placement is completely wrong when being recorded at the console. You want to record from a good 20-30 feet in front of the pipe fascade. You get a nice mix of organ sound and room acoustics that way.

                When recording with a mic at the console, you're always going to miss stuff.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JonathanP View Post
                  When recording with a mic at the console, you're always going to miss stuff.
                  I'm not sure I follow the logic. I understand the sound blends better in the auditorium or sanctuary where the organ is installed. I also understand that what the organist hears is not always what the congregation/audience hear. Why would that preclude placing the microphone near the console? If that's the only option one has, then I certainly understand not placing the camcorder in the auditorium/congregation, starting it, and then making your way to the console.

                  Perhaps you're thinking of getting the "ambiance," rather the reflected sound from the various surfaces into the recording as well? The links, to which I referred below, have all that information in them. That said, I would mention that I prefer to record the sound with as little reverb as possible. It's always possible to add the reverb afterward, but incredibly difficult to remove it after-the-fact.

                  Michael
                  Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                  • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                  • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                  • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi,
                    I discovered that a PZM mic works great for recording instruments with high SPL's [sound pressure levels].
                    Crown invented the PZM mic, but if you're fortunate, on ebay you can find Radio Shack's version for a LOT less!
                    The Crown costs around $500 or so.. haven't check current price.. but a used R. Shack one would be around $20 -$30 ish..
                    The reason the R.S. model is so cheap, is that it used a 1/4" phone plug output, no phantom power, and a freq. response of 20Hz - 18,000Hz. The Crown was 20 - 20,000, and had the phantom power and an XLR connector.
                    I own a R.S. one, and I can put it 3 ft. away from my Conn 650, and record full fidelity with no distortion!
                    I happened to find the mic for free! It is a mono mike, if that's not a problem.
                    You might just find 2 online..!
                    - Marc
                    Lowrey MX2 (NT400x)
                    Thomas Floridian Classic -- aka Wersi Rondo Classic
                    Kimball K800 'Fascination' Theater Organ
                    Conn 650 - Type 1 with Conn Pipes - Model #145
                    Baldwin Cinema 2 (214-DR)
                    Wersi Spectra DX 700 CD - LiveStyle, Memory Tower
                    Wersi Beta DX400 TS - (with AMS)
                    Wersi Delta DX 500 - (with AMS)
                    Wersi Pegasus Keyboard!
                    MOOG Eterwave Standard Theremin & MOOG Werkstatt
                    Roland GAIA SH-01 Virtual Analog Synthesizer
                    Casio Privia PX-160 Digital Piano!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                      I'm not sure I follow the logic. I understand the sound blends better in the auditorium or sanctuary where the organ is installed. I also understand that what the organist hears is not always what the congregation/audience hear. Why would that preclude placing the microphone near the console? If that's the only option one has, then I certainly understand not placing the camcorder in the auditorium/congregation, starting it, and then making your way to the console.
                      I just had the opportunity to play my short adaptation of "Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy" on a Rodgers Infinity 484, Opus #1. I've got the name right because it is printed on the cover of Dr. Lamb's new holiday album. Anyway this is an impressive sounding organ with lots of channels (I see at least five speakers, there might be more) with a whole room and a house built around it. I was very impressed with the sound sitting in the audience last week. The CD is very nice, too.
                      From the console, it sounds like ****. All the sound is bouncing off the hard walls behind you in a muddled mess. It could really use a mixer and a couple of local speakers for the player, but that is just for an amateur player like me. A pro like Dr. Lamb doesn't expect to hear good sound from the organ at the console - and I'm sure he paid $$$$$$ for this installation, if you include the room.
                      On my first encounter with playing a pro church organ, AGO pipe & Pizza 2 years ago, the installation at the local Catholic church (St Agnes? St Andrew?) had such a long delay between the remote speakers, and the console, that I couldn't finish the Bach Invention I was attempting. Apparently this is the usual thing for church organs, to sound bad at the console, and the advice of Dr. Timothy Baker who was advising at that location was "church organists have to get used to that."
                      So yes, videotaping the organist with a mike mounted on the video camera is for players of hammond and other home organs, not pro organ setups.
                      city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for the advice everyone. Thanks also for the thread links myorgan. I hadn't thought about looking in the reed organ section as the overall spectrum of sound compared to a cathedral organ is considerably different and doesn't present the same challenges.

                        Indianajo, thanks for the advice on wooden floors. The floor of the cathedral I recorded in is completely solid and covered in marble but when I'm at other venues this will be quite useful to remember.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Derekinthesun, Indy's advice is spot-on with respect to the SM58 and 32' stops. A 32' rank responds somewhere in the 20Hz range, the SM58's frequency response drops sharply around 100Hz. While the EQ is not the *only* factor involved in damping handling noise, it certainly is A factor.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	frequency-response_sm58.gif
Views:	1
Size:	5.9 KB
ID:	594512

                          Indy, to be pedantic, the SM58 has a cardioid response with its best noise rejection at 180 degrees (directly in front of the singer). The Beta 58 has a supercardioid pattern, with its best noise rejection at the 120 degree marks.

                          Wes

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by indianajo View Post
                            ...the SM58 is unsuitable for 32' stops as it cuts off at 50 hz...I found a used Shure KSM27 condenser mike which has 20 hz response and is a normal cardioid pattern. I'm pleased with the results I'm getting on organ source material, using a camera tripod and shock mount I constructed out of rubber belt material. It does require a mixer or phantom power 48v power supply to boost the signal high enough to go into the line port of a PC.
                            I fervently second what indianajo says here. My disclaimer: I'm a musician, not a sound engineer, but in several churches where I served, I did run the mixing boards for both live performance and recording, including organ music. So I have a bit of practical experience.

                            Quite awhile back, I had a chance to record on the Harrisburg PA Forum's large Moller pipe organ. Our church sound technician set up an array of three Shure mics, probably SM58s or similar, as they were our go-to vocal mics from the church. The recording was done at a fast speed (for lower tape noise level) on his Sony 10" reel recorder. As I recall, the recording was quite good, except for those passages where I used the 32' pedal stops and really rumbled the floor. You heard little to none of that on the recording, thanks probably to the mics.

                            A few years later, at another church, I worked with a ensemble of acoustic string instruments playing bluegrass-style arrangements of hymns and southern gospel music. Even with a high-end Yamaha mixing board, and a selection of good mics, we had fits trying to record this music--some of the guitars and fiddles had pickups, others didn't, and trying to individually mic and mix this stuff was a nightmare. Finally, someone suggested we try using one or two good condenser mics places several feet away from the entire group. I forget what make/model we used, but it was similar in pickup pattern and freq. response to what indianajo suggests. The results were amazing, even with the Taylor AB3 acoustic bass we used--we placed one of the condenser mics in line with the bass amp, set it so we got an upright bass sound that was at the right volume level with the rest of the group, and it recorded nearly perfectly.

                            We ended up using the condenser mics for much of our other musical recording, including vocal soloists and groups backed up by piano, organ, and/or acoustic instruments. Two decent condenser mics may cost $400-600 depending on discounts, but the cost-benefit, to me, is well worth it.

                            If you need to record stereo, two condenser mics placed 12-15' apart and, in the case of organ, aimed at about 70 degrees angle from each other, then each panned 70 or 75 percent left/right when mixing output, should give you a good discrete stereo effect.

                            This route will likely require that you separately synch the audio with the video from your camcorder; I know there are several PC softwares that do it at a reasonable cost. Someone with more expertise can probably suggest products.

                            Of course, if you're primarily recording for YouTube, and your music is being heard through cheap PC speakers or earbuds, much of the bass and richness will be lost anyway. But for your own purpose, it's best to make the highest-quality recording you can while you're at it.
                            Now: Yamaha FX-10, Hammond Phoenix (comatose), Yamaha U3HS piano, Yamaha YPG-535 Portable Grand
                            Past: Yamaha YC45D, 2x RA-200 amp, Rhodes Suitcase 88, MiniMoog Synth; Hammond CV + Leslie 122; Hammond T-412 + Leslie 225; Gulbransen Pacemaker; Bradford (W. T. Grant) chord organ (1966, my first organ); Hohner Melodica - Soprano (1964, my first instrument)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              MVSlice, you bring up some great points.

                              For recording real lows like in a pipe organ, I would probably select the Rhode NT1-A microphone because it has a very flat frequency response between about 20Hz an 18kHz.

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	NT1-NT1A-frequency.png
Views:	1
Size:	11.2 KB
ID:	594513

                              By the way, there is a trick to get a good stereo image and reduce muddiness in a very reverberant room that works especially well with cardiod-pattern mics, small diaphragm condensers, and so on. Rather than placing the mics a distance apart as you have suggested, you can instead place them in the center of the field, point towards each other, making a 90 degree angle, in an "X-Y pair". This gets you a good stereo image, but cuts down on reverberation muddiness because the reverberations will arrive at both microphones at the same time (for sound that reaches both channels). It's key to understand that most reverb happens below 3kHz and what that means for the wavelength. This configuration will also keep the high frequencies phase-coherent.

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	xypair.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	61.2 KB
ID:	594514

                              Wes

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X