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Where are we headed as organists and churchmen? What is our future?

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  • #61
    Some here do generalise their own feelings a bit too much.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Admin View Post
      Cameron Carpenter has expressed a similar opinion and I totally agree.
      I share the same sentiment as well I will be massaging that as a core tenement in paper I'm starting to write, all for time though.
      Last edited by Ben Madison; 09-01-2017, 07:23 PM.
      Instruments:
      22/8 Button accordion.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Admin View Post
        I really don't care what churches do or don't do. I don't agree with the worship as entertainment approach that many churches are moving to, but that's between them and God. Let's be honest, Martin Luther sought to revitalize the church by changing its ritual and music to make it more accessible to the masses. Many of his hymn tunes were based on secular tunes of his time. Vatican II in the '60s did the same thing centuries later. Frankly, I think the adoption of materialism and political dogma as substitutes at the expense of the avocation of spiritually is a much greater threat to the Christian Church than a drum set on the altar.
        Here in Australia, I've noticed that most of the teenagers go to churches with modern rock bands, (I guess it's okay if they do it to the glory of God) but I personally like old fashioned hymns or the modern hymns that still have the style or a similar stye to the old fashioned ones. I was raised in a Methodist Protestant church in Mississippi and a Bible christian church when we moved to Australia. Now I sometimes play piano in a Presbyterian church and I think that hymns like "Blesses Assurance" and "At the cross" are beautiful and in my opinion the best type of music to praise the Lord with. If I learn the pipe organ, I'd want to use it in a way that glorifies the Lord.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Nutball View Post
          So modern artists are rebelling? I feel like I'm rebelling against the modern rebels, and tending toward tradition.

          There have been times when I'm inspired to see God when listening to rock or pop. I rarely pay attention to the words. Most of the time I couldn't understand what they were saying, it's just the general sounds I'd listen to. Anyway, I'd be inspired toward good thoughts by how such pleasuring sounds can exist, and if God is existance, then what great music I just heard was only an infinitely small piece of God, and so then how much better could music and other things be than what I know to exist so far.

          I have found almost everybody seems to put the lyrics in highest importance, then you get a lot of lyric based music with potentially good words, but plain and lacking music quality. I put priority on music, words just add an extra characteristic with the different voices and vowels and syllables
          I agree with you Nutball, there is no such this as rebelling in music. There is only New ways of expressing and improving/innovation of the musical intruments. Just think of the old age how the people use leaves by putting in their mouth just to produce a sound. Of course we don't want our whole life to use a leaf to produce music. We have to embrace change.
          Web Designer at Petstreetmall
          "We are your pet supplies expert"

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          • #65
            Originally posted by khouji123! View Post
            I agree with you Nutball, there is no such this as rebelling in music. There is only New ways of expressing and improving/innovation of the musical intruments. Just think of the old age how the people use leaves by putting in their mouth just to produce a sound. Of course we don't want our whole life to use a leaf to produce music. We have to embrace change.
            At the risk of putting too fine a point on this: it depends on the particular leaf-in-the-mouth to which you refer...

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            • #66
              Interesting write-up, a new study shows 30% increase in attendance at Evensong in Anglican Churches 2008-2012. I suspect the trend has continued and that there are even more attendees in 2017. When we were in England in June people lined up well before the service time in order to be sure of getting seated for Evensong in both London and York, and I hear anecdotal reports of the same thing from many other places. Traditional worship is not dead, despite the best efforts of the praise band hucksters. I think we may have turned a corner.

              https://churchleaders.com/news/inter...2167-742066472

              John
              ----------
              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

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              • #67
                Of the four services my church (ELCA Lutheran) has the largest attendance is at the "traditional" service with between 200 to 350 depending on the time of year.

                The "praise band" service attendance is 50 to 65; Our Saturday 5pm service (with singers and piano) hovers around 75; the early Sunday service which is mostly hymns and spoken word hovers around 45.

                Last year for Christmas Eve we had an attendance just short of 900 over 3 services - they were all very 'traditional' services. We are adding a 4th Christmas Eve service this year.

                The traditional service appears to be very strong, at least in my region.

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                • #68
                  Such reports are very encouraging. I have often expressed a sort of wishful-thinking opinion that one of these days we will see a reversal of what has been going on for half a century in the US church. In my part of the world I'm not really seeing much revival of interest in ancient/traditional worship, as the balance continues to tip in the direction of pop-music free-style big box churches.

                  It's disheartening to hear of one traditional congregation after another struggling or even closing the doors, and it's hard not to be just a bit disdainful of the "mega-churches" that are "sucking all the oxygen out of the air," so to speak, wherever they plant a new branch, siphoning off most of the young families from the existing churches. How can the typical mainline congregation compete when the big box church down the street rents a massive park for their Easter Egg Drop -- paying a fleet of helicopters to fly over and rain cratefuls of plastic eggs filled with toys, candy, and even money? Throws the biggest Christmas party in town, and has a full-blown rock concert every Sunday morning for the teens while the younger set gets their own two-hour program with movies, games, popcorn, and big fun music?

                  But one of these days there will be people who get spiritually hungry for something with more substance than that. At least we can hope.
                  John
                  ----------
                  *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                    Such reports are very encouraging. I have often expressed a sort of wishful-thinking opinion that one of these days we will see a reversal of what has been going on for half a century in the US church. In my part of the world I'm not really seeing much revival of interest in ancient/traditional worship, as the balance continues to tip in the direction of pop-music free-style big box churches.

                    It's disheartening to hear of one traditional congregation after another struggling or even closing the doors, and it's hard not to be just a bit disdainful of the "mega-churches" that are "sucking all the oxygen out of the air," so to speak, wherever they plant a new branch, siphoning off most of the young families from the existing churches. How can the typical mainline congregation compete when the big box church down the street rents a massive park for their Easter Egg Drop -- paying a fleet of helicopters to fly over and rain cratefuls of plastic eggs filled with toys, candy, and even money? Throws the biggest Christmas party in town, and has a full-blown rock concert every Sunday morning for the teens while the younger set gets their own two-hour program with movies, games, popcorn, and big fun music?

                    But one of these days there will be people who get spiritually hungry for something with more substance than that. At least we can hope.
                    I totally agree with your statement brother.
                    Web Designer at Petstreetmall
                    "We are your pet supplies expert"

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                    • #70
                      To be honest, we should admit that what has been going on for 50 years in the US church was not started for no reason at all. There was a problem that needed to be addressed, but the "solution" we championed back then has produced a raft of unintended consequences.

                      The problem back in the 60's was that "traditional" worship in many if not most evangelical-type churches (such as Southern Baptist) had become stale. A big growth spurt in the 50's ("A million more in '54") had beefed up attendance at SBC churches where worship was free-style, consisting of an enthusiastic "song service" of upbeat and fun Gospel songs, followed by an enthusiastic sermon. But by the late 60's that format had become less attractive to outsiders and less interesting to the faithful.

                      A lot of things fed into that situation -- (1) the folks who'd led the enthusiastic music in the 50's were now getting older and becoming a little less enthusiastic. (2) the Gospel songs that were the basis of the repertoire did not age well and seemed irrelevant in the fast-changing world of the late 60's. (3) Young people were crazy about rock and roll bands that saturated the airwaves and kept them entertained via AM top-40 radio day and night. (4) Social changes were happening at frightful speed, and 1950's style music and preaching was not keeping up.

                      But the biggest problem went unrecognized. The reality was that the big fun 1950's free-style worship that had drawn so many new folks into the SBC tent was actually hollow at the core. There was no connection to the ancient liturgy that had bound the church together for nearly 2000 years. The music itself was generally "modern" in that it was primarily late 1800's revival and Sunday School songs plus a helping of 1930's depression-born heaven-oriented music and a sprinkling of Billy Graham Crusade hymns and Southern Gospel quartet songs. No ancient hymns, no classical music of any kind in many churches. Sermons were at the discretion of the preacher, unrelated to the Christian Year or seasons or Lectionary, and were primarily salvationist. Prayers were extemporaneous, and there was no communal Lord's Prayer or other congregational efforts, no reciting of creeds, no reading together, not even any scripture other than whatever passage the preacher might read as the putative springboard for his sermon.

                      So what had been "fun" in the 50's was revealed for what it was -- empty entertainment. And we Boomers wanted more. But we unfortunately didn't know what we wanted, certainly not what we needed. So we looked around and brought into the church the music that we loved from the radio, the rock concerts, the shows. Instead of reforming worship, we just changed the music. Sure the sermons got "cooler" as younger preachers realized they could stroke the flock with "relevant" preaching, and worship leaders got creative with drama, pantomime, dance moves, hand-raising, audience clapping, lights, fog, screens.

                      And now we are where we are. Back to square one with empty entertainment, and a great many people still don't know what is missing. Perhaps the Millennials will in fact lead the way back to liturgical worship, if this really is a trend that continues and spreads. I guess we'll see. And we can hope.
                      John
                      ----------
                      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                        I just took this test https://www.women.com/vanessa/quiz-i..._source=wdc_fb and aced it (15 out of 15)--not bad for an always Methodist/UMC.

                        David
                        I tried it too. Is said I'm the ultimate Southern Baptist. . No I'm not. I'm one of those funny mentalists.
                        Allen ADC 1000
                        Large Beagle

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                        • #72
                          IN light of some of my ranting above about the dearth of liturgy, disconnect from the Christian calendar and seasons, the utter dismissal of everything ancient and traditional by most evangelicals -- interesting to notice that some of the Baptist churches around here are advertising their "Advent" services, complete with candles and wreaths. Presumably some of them will actually read the traditional Hope, Peace, Joy, and Love scripture passages on the appropriate Sundays.

                          Next thing you know they'll be doing communion more frequently. Probably not every Sunday though. That's still too "Catholic" for most of them

                          The baby went out with the bath water and hasn't yet been retrieved (or even missed).
                          John
                          ----------
                          *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

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                          • #73
                            Actually, John the funnymentalist quip was said somewhat tongue in cheek.

                            The Baptist church I attend would probably be described more as conservative than fundamental. Our pastor holds high standards for the music. He also acts as choir director so gets to oversee what is used. We do not major on the minors. Such as hair or skirt length. Unfortunately us poor old fundamentalists have gained a poor reputation for those kinds of things.

                            I occasionally try to play some Bach on the old Baldwin organ, but that is a challenge in itself. I have a long way to go musically anyway and they say a poor workman blames the tools but that old organ does not seem really designed to tackle serious classical music. I still suffer from performance anxiety so some of its idiosyncrasies can easily throw me into a tailspin. It is certainly not AGO standard.
                            Allen ADC 1000
                            Large Beagle

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                            • #74
                              I'm the same ornery old Methodist I've always been, but I aced the test. (I will admit I guessed at one.)

                              David

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                              • #75
                                Ultimate Southern Baptist . . . although I am a staunch Lutheran.

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