One organ manufacturer is all that is needed to build all types of organs.

[daryljeffreyl]

A Hammond B3 organ cost about the same as a new Chevy in 1964 as does a Hammond B3 mk2 today. New organs have never been inexpensive. But the problem with your argument is that while a new organ may be expensive, there are plenty used of organs that are being given away or available at a bargain price. Further, you can take those cheap keyboards you talk about and, with a little ingenuity and not much cash, put together a VPO that will rival the sound of the most expensive digital.


So yeah, if you think the only organ worth having is brand spanking new one, you might have a point, but the fact of the matter is, taken as a whole, organs are more affordable than ever.

Excellent points. Back in the sixties, the organ's main competitor was a combo organ. Since then single keyboard combo organs have evolved into high quality keyboards, and arranger keyboards. The variety of sounds and the quality of sounds is excellent. Keyboards in the 1980's began adapting the latest technology. Keyboards also kept there price range low, and acceptable to consumers. Organ manufacturers kept raising prices. What would happen to keyboard sales if the manufacturers adopted organ prices? Sales would suffer a massive decline.

In the United States, organ sales started suffering a slight declines in sales in the year 1978. The organ industry, in the 1980 calendar year, suffered a 80% decline in sales, and never recovered. That is 39 years ago. A lot of younger people, therefore, never had the opportunity to see a new or used organ, and therefore, never had a opportunity to learn to play an organ.Even if they briefly saw a new or used organ, their parents didn't own a organ, and therefore they never received organ lessons. So therefore it is not surprising that their is little interest in new or used organ, particularly for people forty years of age and younger. Mention the word, "organ" to many younger people and they will think you are talking about body parts.

Many people bought organs years ago because it was a new fad; something cool to own. Many people bought only one organ. When they found that it would take more time and effort to learn to play, then they anticipated, they gave up learning to play the organ and lost interest. Like drive-in theaters, console stereos, and A&W drive-ins, fad come into style, and go out of style.

Today, for most people, the organ is a forgotten instrument, but still not quite gone.

[daryljeffreyl]

I'm officially confused. For the first posts, you were talking about pipe organs and digital organs. Now your topic is home organs. It is certainly difficult to discuss a moving topic. Regarding your keyboards with four legs (Emu's), perhaps people just didn't want them and the manufacturer overestimated/overpriced for the market?

Wanna bet? In my organ program (Performance), there were over 10 new organists, and over 20 taking lessons. I daresay your numbers are a bit off. That's just one organ program in the entire USA in the 1980s.

I brought my organ into my old workplace, and several students were interested in trying their hand at the instrument. Visibly and verbally, they enjoyed it immensely–several trying it out. Almost without exception, when I bring an organ in for a Symphony performance, one or more stage crew (college students) come to ask questions, and most want to play it. I've even had Symphony and chorus members seek the opportunity to play the instrument. Because it is a fairly new instrument for people to be heard well-played, I've run into a resurgence of interest. Almost every performance where the organ has been used has resulted in a nearly-immediate standing ovation, unlike other performances where it takes a bit of time for people to decide to stand–if they choose to.

Perhaps you should get out more, or at least go to places where the organ is appreciated. You will find that which you seek.

Michael

Unfortunately, both home and institutional organ sales have suffered steep sales declines since 1980, and continue to decline each year. Kawai recently exited the organ business with the Lowrey brand. Who will be next?

[MarkS]

There was at least one company producing a variety of keyboard instruments. Estey manufactured pipe organs, reed organs, electronic organs (Minshall), and pianos.

As for Wicks, their first electronic organs used Walker electronics, while the later ones were manufactured by Viscount.

As noted by others, Rodgers produced electronic, hybrid, and pipe organs in house.

[myorgan]

Most young people have never seen a new organ, and therefore they have not had the opportunity to hear or even play a new home organ. Even if they did, the large price difference between an organ and a quality keyboard would keep most young people from purchasing a home organ. Most people, of any age, given the large price difference between keyboards and home organs, would choose to buy a keyboard.
[snip]
Price is always a factor. E-mu, the late eighties and early nineties, had some sampler keyboard that musicians found to pricey. Ensoniq samplers, such as the EPS, EPS +, EPS 16 +, and ASR series were lowered in price and therefore sold many more units.

In conclusion, price is always a factor, but there appears to be little interest in home organs, either new or used.

I'm officially confused. For the first posts, you were talking about pipe organs and digital organs. Now your topic is home organs. It is certainly difficult to discuss a moving topic. Regarding your keyboards with four legs (Emu's), perhaps people just didn't want them and the manufacturer overestimated/overpriced for the market?

Also, back in 1980, most organ buyers were over the age of forty. Baby boomers and younger people did not have the same interest in the organ.

Wanna bet? In my organ program (Performance), there were over 10 new organists, and over 20 taking lessons. I daresay your numbers are a bit off. That's just one organ program in the entire USA in the 1980s.

I brought my organ into my old workplace, and several students were interested in trying their hand at the instrument. Visibly and verbally, they enjoyed it immensely–several trying it out. Almost without exception, when I bring an organ in for a Symphony performance, one or more stage crew (college students) come to ask questions, and most want to play it. I've even had Symphony and chorus members seek the opportunity to play the instrument. Because it is a fairly new instrument for people to be heard well-played, I've run into a resurgence of interest. Almost every performance where the organ has been used has resulted in a nearly-immediate standing ovation, unlike other performances where it takes a bit of time for people to decide to stand–if they choose to.

Perhaps you should get out more, or at least go to places where the organ is appreciated. You will find that which you seek.

Michael

[daryljeffreyl]

On the one hand you argue that young people aren't interested in the organ because owning one is too expensive. On the other you argue that used organs are cheap because nobody's interested in owning one.

Well, which is it?

What you're really saying is that there's a lack of interest in organs, period. Price is not a factor, because regardless of whether the price is high or low, there's no interest.

Very few music store have new organs in their stores. Most young people have never seen a new organ, and therefore they have not had the opportunity to hear or even play a new home organ. Even if they did, the large price difference between an organ and a quality keyboard would keep most young people from purchasing a home organ. Most people, of any age, given the large price difference between keyboards and home organs, would choose to buy a keyboard.

When the 1980 recession occurred in the United States, within a year organ sales declined by 80%. Since the organ was a luxury item, people could forgo purchasing an organ. Now add high interest rates, at the time, to the organ high price, and now people had a reason not to purchase an organ. Also, back in 1980, most organ buyers were over the age of forty. Baby boomers and younger people did not have the same interest in the organ.

Price is always a factor. E-mu, the late eighties and early nineties, had some sampler keyboard that musicians found to pricey. Ensoniq samplers, such as the EPS, EPS +, EPS 16 +, and ASR series were lowered in price and therefore sold many more units.

In conclusion, price is always a factor, but there appears to be little interest in home organs, either new or used.

[Admin]

Organs are simply , in my opinion, priced too high, in comparison to keyboards. Young people need to be interested in buying a new organ. They either can't afford a new organ, or don't want to make the huge outlay in money necessary to purchase an organ.

Used organs are cheap because very few people are interested in owning an organ..

On the one hand you argue that young people aren't interested in the organ because owning one is too expensive. On the other you argue that used organs are cheap because nobody's interested in owning one.

Well, which is it?

What you're really saying is that there's a lack of interest in organs, period. Price is not a factor, because regardless of whether the price is high or low, there's no interest.

[daryljeffreyl]

A Hammond B3 organ cost about the same as a new Chevy in 1964 as does a Hammond B3 mk2 today. New organs have never been inexpensive. But the problem with your argument is that while a new organ may be expensive, there are plenty used of organs that are being given away or available at a bargain price. Further, you can take those cheap keyboards you talk about and, with a little ingenuity and not much cash, put together a VPO that will rival the sound of the most expensive digital.


So yeah, if you think the only organ worth having is brand spanking new one, you might have a point, but the fact of the matter is, taken as a whole, organs are more affordable than ever.

Used organs are cheap because very few people are interested in owning an organ. The used organ supply is finite. When critical parts are no longer available, the used organ will no longer function properly, or at all. The continuation of an adequate used organ supply, long into the future, is dependent on a supply of new organs.

At least keyboard are high quality instruments, just different from the organ.

A person could get a midi pedal board, some type of keyboard stand, a keyboard bench, two volume pedals, a pedal to activate a rotating speaker effect, a mixer, two arranger keyboards, and two powered, two or three way, speaker systems and build an organ setup. Won't replace a top end Wersi or Lowrey, but decent.

[Admin]

Organs are simply , in my opinion, priced too high, in comparison to keyboards. Young people need to be interested in buying a new organ. They either can't afford a new organ, or don't want to make the huge outlay in money necessary to purchase an organ. Without the sale of new organs, the industry will die. Annual sales of new organs are far below new keyboard sales. Again, how many keyboards would be sold, if the prices of keyboards were in the range of $20,000 to $100,000 per keyboard?

Lowrey is the latest fatality. Who will be next?

A Hammond B3 organ cost about the same as a new Chevy in 1964 as does a Hammond B3 mk2 today. New organs have never been inexpensive. But the problem with your argument is that while a new organ may be expensive, there are plenty used of organs that are being given away or available at a bargain price. Further, you can take those cheap keyboards you talk about and, with a little ingenuity and not much cash, put together a VPO that will rival the sound of the most expensive digital.


So yeah, if you think the only organ worth having is brand spanking new one, you might have a point, but the fact of the matter is, taken as a whole, organs are more affordable than ever.

[Havoc]

I'm not going to argue that there isn't a declining interest in organs. There isn't any interest anymore. Had a conversation with my teacher couple weeks ago and it is dire. One conservatorium over here has no students for organ entering, another just a single one. As for churches... just from the last month: one has become a supermarket (there is a rather decent organ in it), another has become a skate park and a third has structural problems and will not be repaired or rebuild (and there is a good organ in that one as well).

But one fallacy in the reasoning of the TS is that the cost of an organ is just the cost of its components.

[daryljeffreyl]

The OP statement is ridiculous! This poster spewed doom and gloom in the Home Organ section of our forum, until it was a dead horse. Now he's here in General Conversation, kicking that same dead horse again.

We are in changing times, changing musical tastes, and changing musical demands. The organ will remain with us....perhaps on a more diminished scale, but it will remain.

I would encourage the OP to take a more positive attitude toward our love, our passions, our music. As long as there are organists, there will be organs!

My statement was poorly worded. If low and declining sales volume continues, and the number of businesses continue to decline, due to mergers and bankruptcies, and there is only a few business left or even one business left, worse case scenario, then these businesses, or even that one business, would have trouble being profitable and staying in business. Perhaps a few pipe organ builders could survive just maintaining existing pipe organs; only time will tell.

[daryljeffreyl]

That is certainly true, but it is true of all keyboard instruments, not just organs. I suspect that the sales of most musical instruments are either flat or down as the number of effortless entertainment options continues to increase, and schools drop music programs due to budget constraints.

The numbers don't tell the whole story, though, especially with organs. Solid state electronics have made organs more reliable, and sampling has been a mature technology for well over 25 years. This means there is less incentive to replace older instruments with new ones as the improvement in sound will be incremental and oblivious to most non-organists.

Organ sales tool there first major decline in sales during the 1980 recession in the US. WIthin one year, organ sales declined 80% and never recovered. Digital sampling technology was far from mature back then. In the 1980's keyboard incorporated advances in technology, while lowering prices and/or, at the very least, keeping prices at an acceptable level for consumers. Keyboards offered more value, per dollar spent, on features and technology to the consumer.

[daryljeffreyl]

That is certainly true, but it is true of all keyboard instruments, not just organs. I suspect that the sales of most musical instruments are either flat or down as the number of effortless entertainment options continues to increase, and schools drop music programs due to budget constraints.

The numbers don't tell the whole story, though, especially with organs. Solid state electronics have made organs more reliable, and sampling has been a mature technology for well over 25 years. This means there is less incentive to replace older instruments with new ones as the improvement in sound will be incremental and oblivious to most non-organists.

Organs are simply , in my opinion, priced too high, in comparison to keyboards. Young people need to be interested in buying a new organ. They either can't afford a new organ, or don't want to make the huge outlay in money necessary to purchase an organ. Without the sale of new organs, the industry will die. Annual sales of new organs are far below new keyboard sales. Again, how many keyboards would be sold, if the prices of keyboards were in the range of $20,000 to $100,000 per keyboard?

Lowrey is the latest fatality. Who will be next?

[myorgan]

That is certainly true, but it is true of all keyboard instruments, not just organs. I suspect that the sales of most musical instruments are either flat or down as the number of effortless entertainment options continues to increase, and schools drop music programs due to budget constraints.

We are also making a false assumption, that declining sales result in lack of profit or bankruptcy. The two are not necessarily synonymous.

It is possible for declining sales to still be profitable with a good business plan. Granted, it is difficult, but still possible.

Michael

[Admin]

Annual sales, per Music Trades Magazine, show declining institutional and home organ sales.

That is certainly true, but it is true of all keyboard instruments, not just organs. I suspect that the sales of most musical instruments are either flat or down as the number of effortless entertainment options continues to increase, and schools drop music programs due to budget constraints.

The numbers don't tell the whole story, though, especially with organs. Solid state electronics have made organs more reliable, and sampling has been a mature technology for well over 25 years. This means there is less incentive to replace older instruments with new ones as the improvement in sound will be incremental and oblivious to most non-organists.

[daryljeffreyl]

Herein lies the fallacy of your thought processes.

You make the assumption that organists are the only market for new pipe or digital organs. There are other markets you left out: Churches, auditoriums, theatres (who mostly restore instruments), concert artists, concert halls, and I'm sure I left other purchasers out. You also make the assumption that new is the only profitable market. From the new items I've purchased over the last couple of decades, planned obsolescence appears to be alive and well. You neglect to mention how part of any organ company's profit comes from maintenance, upgrades, and rebuilds. Oh, I guess that's not profitable.O:-)

An odd statement. In my area alone, there are several organ students studying with various teachers. It's been my experience new students are born often when they hear an organ played well for the first time. They've never heard anything like it and want to learn.

While I realize you're floating a theory you've come up with, it has been interesting to me that while asking everyone else to quote evidence, you make statements through questions and at the same time fail to quote your own sources for making those statements. Hmmm.

Michael

Michael



Annual sales, per Music Trades Magazine, show declining institutional and home organ sales. Institutional Sales: Year 2017, 790 sales; Year 2016, 820 sales: Year 2015, 900 sales; Year 2014, 940 sales; Year 2013, 1,000 sales; Year 2008 2,420 sales for the US. Home sales: Year 2017, 1,150 sales; 2016, 1,400 sales; 2015, 1,440; 2014, 1,450 sales; 2013 1,500; 2008, 4,870 sales, for the US. Allen Organ's, annual sales, for the world, are around 800 organs-Theater, Studio, Classical, and Church . They once were selling around 2,000 organs per year, worldwide sales. As you can see, sales of all types of organs continue to decline. I don't know if the institutional organ sales include pipe organs. Kawai recently terminated the Lowrey organ brand. Also Music Trades magazine, in the January 2019 issue, has an article about Kawai terminating the Lowrey Organ brand, and the decline of the home organ industry, over the years, in the US. Probably a very small number of pipe organ builders may survive on pipe organ maintenance, and on a very small number of sales, worldwide, but only time will tell. Pipe organ tend to be more expensive to purchase and install than digital organs in institutional locations.