Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What makes pipes superior?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: What makes pipes superior?



    Interesting - Don and Nathan agreed with what I said earlier - now it is time for me to agree with what they have said!</P>


    I couldn't have said it better myself. []</P>


    (regarding a pipe organ'sfilling the room; also being impressed with how the various parts of a pipe organ achieve their final result)</P>

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: What makes pipes superior?



      Continuing the conversation with Don, Souby, and Nathan, and taking the topic around a curve, so to speak:</P>


      So, one quality of a pipe organ that you really enjoy is that sensation of the organ being completely "coupled" with or integrated into the room, so that the organ fills the room from corner to corner, with a uniformity that makes it pleasant to listen tono matter where you sit or stand. Obviously one very ugly flaw of most electronic organs is the "beaming" effect of speakers, and that flaw, when present to a high degree, really ruins the experience, and is a dead give-away that the sound is coming out of a box.</P>


      And your respect or admiration for the "mechanics" or the means of tone production is based on the skill and artistry and history and personality . . . all those human touches, as well as the "coolness" factor -- the sounds are coming out of the mouths of elemental physical musical devices, as opposed to somecoldly electronicrecording/playback system.</P>


      If you have ever heard a digital installation (or some digital stops on a combination organ) that you found pleasing, would you say that those stops enjoyed at least some degree of the "coupling" or "integration" that make pipes work so well in a room?</P>


      Do you think that if an installer of digital organs tookall possible pains to disperse the sound in a pattern as much like a pipe organs (more or less a spherical pattern), and to eliminate every hint of tweeter beaming and horn honk and all those other undesirable speaker qualities -- would that make a digital at least a little more acceptable?</P>


      Could you learn to appreciate the "mechanics" of the tone production of such an elaborate machine?</P>


      John</P>
      <P mce_keep="true"></P>
      John
      ----------
      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: What makes pipes superior?

        For me it's how each rank can sound like it's coming from somewhere else. It's feeling the bourdons through the floor. It's hearing the tibias from the rafters and the strings from behind the curtains. I am not very familiar with digital organs since I haven't got a chance to hear one in person, only recordings. Either they don't record very well from what I can hear, or they really do sound like thesound is coming from the same place out of a box, like a cheap practice amp. Can you get multiple speakers to only play specific ranks?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: What makes pipes superior?



          [quote user="jbird604"]Could you learn to appreciate the "mechanics" of the tone production of such an elaborate machine?[/quote]I can appreciate the elaborate engineering that goes into a digital organ - after all, I spent many years as a computer professional. Appreciating and loving are two different things however!</P>


          Icompare thisto searching for a soulmate - somedaythe world will knowa nearly perfectfacsimile of a human being; arobot that is technically flawless and which lacks the 'drawbacks' of a human being (aging, disease, physical imperfections).</P>


          Nevertheless, that work of supreme engineering and science willforever lack that specialsomething that is difficult to put into words.</P>


          I suppose you might call it a 'soul'.</P>

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: What makes pipes superior?

            As we know, various manufactures have made their "prestige" installations have greater numbers of speakers with more complex means of distributing the sounds. Since everyone who's heard it more or less seems to agree that the M&amp;O organ is the "ne plus ultra" when it comes to sounding like an installed pipe organ, I'd say this factor is the "sine qua non" of why a pipe organ sounds like it sounds. It seems like 82 is about the right number...to roughly emulate the potentially "thousands" of "speakers" a pipe organ has...isn't that how many channels the M&amp;O organ has? I think the sample length is important, too, but probably secondary to the speaker factor. (secondary with respect, to, say, a modern digital from Allen or Rodgers. Of course an Allen ADC or MOS, even with 80 channels, would still not sound realistic on many stops)

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: What makes pipes superior?



              All of this engineering and audioequipment costs a pretty penny - when I see the astronomical prices for a large digital organ I just wonder "why"?</P>


              Is the point of a digital instrument that you can get a bigger organ?</P>


              Often, less is more. OK, some organists have an ego thing - you know who you are... [^o)]</P>


              Is the point of a digital instrument that you can get acheaper organ?</P>


              What puzzles me is that you can get a nice pipe organ for a very good price - just look all the organs for sale here, or visit the Organ Clearing House! Some of those organs are quite worthy of preservation and deserve a good home.</P>


              What I dislike most about digital organs (besides their clone-like blandness, cheapness,unsatisfyingtone and 'soulless' quality) is that they often replace some very serviceable and potentially interesting pipe organ. I cringe when I hear those stories of oldpipe organs destroyed by digital organ installers.</P>


              I am also very unhappy thatit seems fewerpipe organs are now being built as a result of this technology. </P>


              If everyone agrees that a real pipe organ is better than a 'fake' one, this cannot be a good thing for the future of the pipe organ...ultimately.</P>

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: What makes pipes superior?

                No matter how many or what type of speakers you install for a digital organ it doesn't alter the fact that the sound is generating from a cone-type speaker device and not from air moving from a pipe. It's like comparing floating in a swimming pool and floating in the Atlantic ocean. There just isn't any salt in the swimming pool. God I can't believe I just compared the ocean to an organ. Oh well, it's time for a glass of Merlot.[D]

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: What makes pipes superior?



                  [quote user="Don Furr"]Oh well, it's time for a glass of Merlot.[D]
                  [/quote]</P>


                  Wouldn't it be more appropriate for a Georgia boy to be sipping whiskey?[]</P>


                  David</P>

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: What makes pipes superior?

                    All of this engineering and audio equipment costs a pretty penny - when I see the astronomical prices for a large digital organ I just wonder "why"?

                    Is the point of a digital instrument that you can get a bigger organ?(snip)

                    Is the point of a digital instrument that you can get a cheaper organ?

                    What puzzles me is that you can get a nice pipe organ for a very good price - just look all the organs for sale...
                    Agreed completely. I looks more an ego thing than anything else. That and the perceived smaller cost. The only factors I can think of for this state of business:
                    - there have been some serious bad organs build the first half of the 1900's
                    - the people deciding have no clue about organs
                    - the real builders are craftsman while the electronic people are salesmen that are able to influence those above
                    - lots of organs have been neglected and it will cost now some serious money to get them back online

                    I don't really fear for the future. After all almost everyone that hasn't got 2 left hands and a decent pair of ears can start building pipe organs! There are no patents on real pipe organs like there no doubt are on digital ones, you do not need incredible sofisticated tools to make them since they could do it in the 1600's (and even earlier). After all there have been electric violins for quite some time...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: What makes pipes superior?



                      I don't really fear for the future. After all almost everyone that
                      hasn't got 2 left hands and a decent pair of ears can start building
                      pipe organs! There are no patents on real pipe organs like there no
                      doubt are on digital ones, you do not need incredible sofisticated
                      tools to make them since they could do it in the 1600's (and even
                      earlier). After all there have been electric violins for quite some
                      time...
                      </p>

                      </p>

                      [:|]</p>

                      ...uh....ok, I may have misinterpreted what you said, if so, forgive me for what I'm gonna say...
                      </p>

                      </p>

                      This is <span style="font-weight: bold;">NOT</span> a simple instrument to make! Here's a link:</p>

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIK1mV2k49c</p>

                      Havoc, just because it could be built that early doesn't mean it's a simple process. In fact, the only more complex process that was available at that time was watch-making.
                      </p>

                      And no, you do not need complex machines to build them. Far as I can tell, the main tools you 'need' are a saw, a lathe, a measuring tool and a LOT of glue (plus materials to build it of course) and a large amount of patience and skill. I have a lot of respect for people who build organs, and I would never belittle them by saying that what they do is easy or something anyone could do! I know I couldn't. It's hard enough to just understand how various parts work and how the fit all the little pieces that you need for these things in all the right holes, not to mention making it a work of art.</p>


                      </p>

                      In addition to that, you have the nightmare of staying in business while making something that we expect to be a monumental work of the highest order in our church....[:S]</p>

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: What makes pipes superior?



                        The pipe organ has motion in the sound. Combining stops ADDS rather than just changing the tone quality, The pipe organ has a build up when more stops are added in a way that an electronic organ lacks.</p>

                        My experiences with recent digital organs consist of two Allen models. The first which I have played is the 3 manual theatre model with a single row of stop tabs. Q311? model. The individual stops each sounding alone are fairly convincing except for the strings which have an electronic buzzing sound. The tibia also has a "Hammond" sound rather than a little harmonic development like a Wurlitzer tibia. All things considered, the sound quality is acceptable enough that I spent an hour playing it.</p>

                        I attended a concert using a five manual Allen special theatre organ installed in a church with marvelous acoustics. The organ had about a "million" speakers covering the floor of the chancel. The sound was pretty good and the build up quite convincing. The sound was nearly as good as my 6 rank Wurlitzer pipe organ. For the about $150,000 the organ must have cost, the sound was pretty good. The church has a church model Allen which was also played. The sound was OK but in no way as good. The many (about 50) channels of audio make the blend better.
                        </p>

                        In summary, the pipe organ sound has motion to the sound and blend between ranks The electronic has a too perfect electronic sound. The electronic can have a large array of drawknobs giving the organist the feeling of playing a large organ. I believe that many organists like this feeling and really do not care as much for the realism of the sound of the instrument.
                        </p>
                        Allan

                        My home organ
                        Style D Wurlitzer pipe organ
                        http://bluemoonwalkinghorses.com/Sty...tion5_rev3.htm
                        Five Newfoundland dogs
                        Sixteen Tennessee walking horseshoes

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: What makes pipes superior?

                          ...uh....ok, I may have misinterpreted what you said, if so, forgive me for what I'm gonna say...


                          This is NOT a simple instrument to make!

                          Havoc, just because it could be built that early doesn't mean it's a simple process.
                          Well, I probably explained myself rather badly. What I meant is that as long as there are smple tools and suitable materials, people can make pipe organs. Even somewhere out in a jungle without electricity you can make a pipe organ and have it play. Yes, it will take time, work, trial and error, building of experience etc. Also you won't have a lawyer suing you because you violated this or that patent. Just try to make an electronic organ in the middle of the rain forest...

                          The basics are simple. Like you said: making it a work of art is a whole other point.


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: What makes pipes superior?

                            [quote user="soubasse32"]


                            [quote user="jbird604"]Could you learn to appreciate the "mechanics" of the tone production of such an elaborate machine?[/quote]I can appreciate the elaborate engineering that goes into a digital organ - after all, I spent many years as a computer professional. Appreciating and loving are two different things however!</P>


                            Icompare thisto searching for a soulmate - somedaythe world will knowa nearly perfectfacsimile of a human being; arobot that is technically flawless and which lacks the 'drawbacks' of a human being (aging, disease, physical imperfections).</P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>


                            [/quote]</P>


                            There is already a very expensive "real doll" that looks reamarkably like a beautiful woman in great detail. You left off one more advantage to such a device: No talking.</P>


                            In regards to digi-organs:They wouldn't exist if there were no real pipes to record.</P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: What makes pipes superior?



                              And why is that practically every single digital organ company that I have come across says that their own particular organs use some sort of random technology that means that only they will sound like real pipe organs? They all say that, but they never really do do they?</P>


                              It's like when you're in the grocery store and it says that their own particular loaves of bread taste 'just like homemade', but they never actually do!</P>
                              <P mce_keep="true"></P>


                              Jezza</P>

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: What makes pipes superior?



                                That's a good one, Jezza! []</P>


                                It goes to show that people will buy anything, even if it flies in the face of logic. I suppose it is mucheasier to turn one's brain off and just believe what someone else is telling you - if they have something to sell, they must know better than the buyer, right? [^o)]</P>


                                I remember reading the archived minutes of an organ committee meeting;this particularchurch was in the process of buying a new organ/selectingthe builder several decades ago, and the neo-baroque craze was in full swing. One of theconversations really stood out:</P>
                                <BLOCKQUOTE>


                                Will this new German baroque organ be able to play everything? Even Franck??</P>


                                Because of the clarity ofsound (due to chiff from un-nicked pipes, de-emphasis of the fundamental, and lots of high-pitched mixtures) you will be able to play Franck much better than on a tubby romantic organ - it will sound so much clearer and better!</P></BLOCKQUOTE>


                                Would you buy that line?! </P>


                                They did. [:O]</P>

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X