Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What makes pipes superior?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: What makes pipes superior?



    [quote user="AllanP"]In summary, the pipe organ sound has motion to the
    sound and blend between ranks The electronic has a too perfect
    electronic sound. The electronic can have a large array of drawknobs
    giving the organist the feeling of playing a large organ. I believe
    that many organists like this feeling and really do not care as much
    for the realism of the sound of the instrument.[/quote]
    </p>

    Indeed, and, in fact, in my opinion, an organ's "big sound" comes from its tonal qualities, not from how many stops it has or how flashy it is. A good organ builder can make 50 ranks sound like 75.
    </p>

    [quote user="soubasse32"]</p>

    That's a good one, Jezza! []</p>


    It goes to show that people will buy anything, even if it flies in the face of logic. I suppose it is mucheasier to turn one's brain off and just believe what someone else is telling you - if they have something to sell, they must know better than the buyer, right? [^o)]</p>


    I remember reading the archived minutes of an organ committee meeting;this particularchurch was in the process of buying a new organ/selectingthe builder several decades ago, and the neo-baroque craze was in full swing. One of theconversations really stood out:</p>
    <blockquote>


    Will this new German baroque organ be able to play everything? Even Franck??</p>


    Because of the clarity ofsound (due to chiff from un-nicked pipes, de-emphasis of the fundamental, and lots of high-pitched mixtures) you will be able to play Franck much better than on a tubby romantic organ - it will sound so much clearer and better!</p></blockquote>


    Would you buy that line?! </p>


    They did. [:O]</p>

    [/quote]</p>

    </p>

    I can't imagine! That's terrible. Franck is meant to be played on a massive romantic organ. That's what he wrote it for! I can't imagine hearing the Chorale #3's opening lines on one of those Neo-Baroque organs.
    </p>

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: What makes pipes superior?



      [quote user="MD1032"]I can't imagine hearing the Chorale #3's opening lines on one of those Neo-Baroque organs.
      [/quote]
      ~1936 Hammond AV - Leslie 122 & PR40~ ~1954 Wurlitzer ElectroStatic 4602 - Leslie 125~

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: What makes pipes superior?



        Hi</P>


        In my case the difference is clear: I have an Allen R311 with brautiful samples, mostly Wurlitzer. It has a Skinner Ezhaler (sp) +Celeste to die for. I also have 6 ranks of pipe at 4 inches wp in a small chamber. connected to the Allen. The Allen blends the individual ranks into an ensemble where the sum rather than the individual ranks are heard. With the pipe you can hear and recognize each individual pipe even at full organ. Like an orchestra you can hear the individual instruments.</P>


        Merry Christmas,</P>


        Al Johnson</P>

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: What makes pipes superior?



          (I hope this isn't a duplicate post--the computer's been acting a little "perverse" this morning!) Funny you'd mention Franck's third chorale--a couple decades ago
          while living in a place even more "culturally remote" than where I live
          now, I learned that chorale, practicing on what was available: an Allen
          MOS-1 instrument. There was no French romantic organ, "tubby" or
          otherwise, in sight. Even though I was never satisfied with the sound
          (the contrast when compared with the LP recordings I had of the chorale
          was stark), I did learn that magnificent piece, something that wouldn't
          have happened at all if that first-generation digital organ hadn't been
          available.</p>

          The history of musical performance is filled with
          examples of musicians practicing on less-than-ideal instruments, when
          the ideal was not readily available. This is a benefit of digital
          organs that doesn't get mentioned enough.</p>

          Merry Christmas, everyone!</p>

          DR
          </p>

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: What makes pipes superior?



            I am going to differ from the accepted line here, and say thatI would rather play a good digital than some of the pipe organs that I have played. I now play on a forty rank pipe organ in an auditorium that seats about five hundred, with a fairly high ceiling and somewhat live acoustics. The organ is acceptable, but that is all I can say about it.</P>


            Some twenty years ago, I played for a while on an almost new organ in a very reverberant room, and hated the organ. It was a poor installation, by a well-known, now defunct manufacturer, and the church did not have the money at that point to get someone in to finish the organ as the maker should have in the first place.</P>


            Several years ago,I played for a while on the first Rodger 967 installation, in an auditorium quite similar to the one I am in now. The organ sounded good, everything worked, and the people loved the sound.</P>


            I have had the privilege of playing on a Phoenix organ not far from my home. I would love to have that privilege every Sunday. The organ uses Casavant samples, in stereo, and is a delight to play. And it fills the room very well. And it sounds like a pipe organ.</P>


            There is nothing quite like a good pipe organ, but too many of the pipe organs that I have been around don't classify as good.</P>


            I really believe that a quality digital organ, with good digitalsamples, in stereo, played through good speakers, adequate for the space, could satisfy a lot of churches.</P>
            Mike

            My home organ is a circa 1990 Galanti Praeludium III, with Wicks/Viscount CM-100 module supplying extra voices. I also have an Allen MDS Theatre II (princess pedalboard!) with an MDS II MIDI Expander.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: What makes pipes superior?



              Mike,</P>


              That's an interesting comment for this particular thread. Perhaps you're saying that the answer to my question is "nothing" . . . pipes are not necessarily superior. Although, your comment is to the effect that you enjoy both the Rodgers 967 and the Phonenix because they sound so much like pipes!</P>


              Why is it a good thing that these organs "sound like pipes?" What characteristic of a good pipe organ do they emulate so well?</P>


              John</P>
              <P mce_keep="true"></P>
              John
              ----------
              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: What makes pipes superior?



                .</P>

                Comment


                • #38
                  [/quote]
                  ~1936 Hammond AV - Leslie 122 & PR40~ ~1954 Wurlitzer ElectroStatic 4602 - Leslie 125~

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: What makes pipes superior?



                    Good point, Nathan. The room can make or break any organ, pipe or otherwise.</P>


                    Al, your original post seems to be gone, and I missed it. What did you say?</P>


                    John</P>
                    John
                    ----------
                    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: What makes pipes superior?

                      [quote user="m&amp;m's"]


                      I am going to differ from the accepted line here, and say thatI would rather play a good digital than some of the pipe organs that I have played. I now play on a forty rank pipe organ in an auditorium that seats about five hundred, with a fairly high ceiling and somewhat live acoustics. The organ is acceptable, but that is all I can say about it.</P>


                      There is nothing quite like a good pipe organ, but too many of the pipe organs that I have been around don't classify as good.</P>


                      [/quote]</P>


                      It's amazing how many people here would prefer ANY pipe over ANY digital. You are right. There is nothing like a GOOD or GREAT pipe organ. Considering the price of new pipe organs, it is pretty sad to have a church or other institution pay such a price and not get a good instrument. At least the price of getting a poor digital is much less.</P>


                      That being said, it's also a shame to have, what was once, a great pipe organ get replaced when it could be restored. Such organs are sometimes replaced by new pipe instruments or digital ones. Too bad.</P>

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: What makes pipes superior?

                        [quote user="soubasse32"]


                        A pipe organ isreal. That is enough for me.</P>


                        [/quote]</P>
                        <P mce_keep="true"></P>


                        I think that pretty well summed it up at the beginning. This has been an interesting thread, though.</P>


                        It's reasonably certainthat one real rank played one note at a time, and an electronic sample of thatrank played through a cone speaker, in the same space, one note at a time would be (or certainly could be) indistinguishable from the real thing. The room's behavior, the randomness of tuning, the overtones and harmonics, the variation in attack, variations in wind supply, etc. allcould be indistinguishable. And every stop could be made that way. But as Magritte might say, this is not a pipe --it is a picture of a pipe.</P>


                        It's when you COMBINE these near-perfect pictures of pipes that the differences become apparent quickly. The very best sampled (or fourier synthesized) instruments can play each pipe essentially 'perfectly'. But a real pipe instrument is a complex hydraulic-mechanical physical system, with each pipe connected to every other pipe in many ways with many variables -- air supply, chests, cabinetry, sympathetic vibrations, physical distance, and on and on. The response of the physical pipes to each of the variables is extremely complex. </P>


                        I've learned never to say never, but current insturments can't and don't model that behaviour in real time. The required model is far to complex, probably requiringthe useof chaos theory to even begin to capture the variability of interactions. The computers in the instruments have no where near theneeded power. It would likely require hours (or certainly many minutes) of processing on even massively parallel super-computing resourcesto produce a realistically modeled large ensemble indistinguishable from the real thing. </P>


                        It's why a good digital can be very convinvcing with 'light' registrations (few stops drawn), and rapidly becomes less convincing the more stops are drawn -- and it doesn'tmatter how good the samples are, or how long the loops are, or how much money one throws at the sound system, or whether even each pipe of every rank has it's own speaker. You still hear those perfectly modeled pipes, but virtually none of the complex dynamicsaffecting theoutputat the SYSTEM level. And that is part of the 'sound' of a pipe instrument, and it can certainly be heard. As can theinter modulationdistortion that is unavoidable in any practical electronic instrument -- which is not part of the sound of a pipe instrument.</P>


                        Which doesn't mean that there'sanything wrong with a digital instrument (the low end really bad ones aside), but it is unfortunate that the commercial hype is that a big digital with all those drawknobs and row after row of pistons and all of thosedifferent voicings and all those speakers is "just as good". Less expensive for sure, more accessible for many churches (or for the few left who don't define their music programas a tambourine,banjo, andsteel guitar) and especially individuals without a conservatory in the back yard -- but not "just as good". </P>


                        Close, but no soap </P>
                        <P mce_keep="true"></P>

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: What makes pipes superior?



                          Well said, Grant; very well said indeed!</P>


                          [Y][D]</P>

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: What makes pipes superior?



                            [quote user="radagast"]It's amazing how many people here would prefer ANY pipe over ANY digital.[/quote]</P>


                            There's nothing amazing about it at all. A pipe organ - even a bad one- is real. That is the important thing for most people who feel strongly about this subject.</P>


                            I feel the same way about pianos. I'd rather play ajunker of apiano than an electronic keyboard. Ialways manage to make music on the junker, whereas on the electronic keyboard there is something very cheesy and 'fake' about it - it detracts from my experience of making music.</P>

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: What makes pipes superior?

                              There is nothing quite like a good pipe organ, but too many of the pipe organs that I have been around don't classify as good.
                              You do not classify them as "good", but why? Because you don't like them probably. This is something to consider as well. Real pipe organs do have more character than any electronic I ever met. So it isn't because you do not like them that they are not "good". But real pipe organs demand that you take their character into account when selecting you music and playing. Also you don't need to call organs that have been neglected for years "not good".

                              It's amazing how many people here would prefer ANY pipe over ANY digital.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: What makes pipes superior?



                                Hi All!</P>


                                Sorry about the deletion. It was late at night and I had difficulty expressing my openion, so better start anew. </P>


                                Right now there is very little difference between pipe and good toaster. Technology has advanced to a point of accurate modeling of pipe steady-state and dynamics also. It should be noted that a pipe is a simple whistle but is very difficult to model.</P>


                                The room acoustics are so important as well as the chamber design. For instance we removed a Wurlitzer/Kilgen from a beautiful live sanctuary. The chambers had no insulation or climate control and the organ when tuned sounded gorgeous but in summer the chamber got to 120 degrees and it was completely out of tune, sounded terrible and the paster hated it. I guess nobody wanted to spend money to properly fix the problen. In their case a toaster would have been a better solution.</P>


                                My Allen R311 sounds very good on individual stops but when combined, they lose their individuality wheras my pipe keeps the sound of the original pipes, even in ensemble. For instance I have say a Viol + Celeste on Acc and play a little solo on the same keyboard, the notes get lost. Now if I add the pipe Viol + Celeste, the individual notes are very clear. Maybe if the toaster had more channels it would be less noticeable. I suspect that's why the newer ones have multiple channels. </P>


                                I would add a litttle more to the organ but I've been under treatment for melanoma requiring 1 week stays in the hospital icu, and I come out terribly weak. Hopefully the CT and PET scan results will show improvement so maybe I can get back to normallity.</P>


                                Any way, I want to wish all of you a very wonderful holiday and even better new year.</P>


                                May God Bless and Protect and Guide us all in His Richeousness.</P>


                                Regards,</P>


                                Al Johnson</P>

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X