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**John Vanderlee** · 06-19-2019, 07:49 AM

https://www.--------/itm/Allen-Custo...IAAOSwUxBdCSnt

I wonder how so many of the ckt. boards need replacing? This being an ADC it might be just those infamous potentiometers. Interesting building too, anyone know anything about it?

**Admin** · 06-19-2019, 09:23 AM

Fifty boards have already been replaced and another 50 need replacement? You have to wonder if the organ was struck by lightning. Certainly an impressive instrument but at $75k and an unknown cost of repair it's unlikely that they'll get even half of what they're asking.

**Nutball** · 06-19-2019, 06:08 PM

It is pretty cool seeing an old electric organ setup on a scale similar to a pipe organ.

**toodles** · 06-19-2019, 07:39 PM

Seems to me this is more likely to work for conversion to a pipe organ console, considering the number of circuit boards that need replacement. Not worth the asking price by a mile.

**John Vanderlee** · 06-20-2019, 05:39 AM

Depends on what you would get it for. If you just parted the speakers out, say at an average of $50 apiece, times 154, that's $15,400. However the HC18 use 15" JBL drivers that go for $200 apiece even if they need re-coning or new surrounds! Probably half the asking price would be more reasonable.

**jbird604** · 06-20-2019, 06:20 AM

Johnson Ferry Baptist Church, Marietta GA. A really marvelous Allen in its day, truly one of the largest and finest digital organs ever built! Diane Bish recorded on it, and it was hailed as a milestone in digital organ history. Obviously has the resources of a pipe organ that would cost many millions of dollars to build.

The advert here states plainly that the organ has some problems. Of course, it's over 30 years old and it's HUGE, so what would you expect? Sounds more like someone is cooking up an excuse to get rid of it. They surely paid several hundred thousand dollars for it back then, and it would cost four or five times as much to replace it today, so what's the big deal about spending a few thousand dollars to replace some failing circuit boards? Yes, it may need a lot of work at this point, as all ADC models had those foam midrange speakers (there are 154 of them here), and it might require investing several thousand dollars to bring it up to standards. But this begs the question -- WHY has it not been maintained over the years? WHY has it been allowed to fall into such disrepair that they are wanting it gone? SMH

So I just have to wonder exactly what is going on here. Their Facebook page seems to be all about the "modern" worship services, making me think the church has gone down the all too familiar path away from traditional worship and into the Sunday morning stage show model. Does anyone know if there are plans to replace this organ? If so, what is the replacement plan? Could this have anything to do with the imminent retirement of their "famous" preacher?

BTW, the $75,000 asking price is a "pipe dream." It might cost a million dollars for a new organ like that today, but you just don't see 35 year old organs going for that kind of money, and that is such a shame. If the church would just spend the money to properly restore it, that organ would still be one of the largest and most magnificent in the entire country, and it might serve them for another 35 years with normal care. But a used-organ purchaser isn't going to spend that kind of money for an organ that will require hundreds of hours of labor and thousands of dollars to remove, transport, re-install, repair, and voice. They'll be extremely lucky to get someone to give them $10K and haul it away. Otherwise, they may be forced to PAY someone to remove it. Again -- SMH!!!

Well, I know that digital organs are typically not viewed as "permanent" instruments in the same way as big pipe organs are. But still, this looks like a disastrous decision. Anybody know exactly what is going on?

**jbird604** · 06-20-2019, 06:27 AM

Johnson Ferry Baptist Church, Marietta GA. I just posted a long rant on another thread about the upcoming "decommisioning" of this organ, which I won't repeat here. I just can't believe this story. Either the happy clappy crowd has totally taken over and is putting the last nail in the coffin of this formerly very traditional church, or else someone just wants a new organ and they have amplified the problems -- which probably boil down to nothing more than pots needing exercise and foam midrange speakers needing repair -- in order to make it sound like the organ is not worth fixing.

Would love to get the scoop on this, if anyone has first-hand knowledge.

**jbird604** · 06-20-2019, 06:38 AM

Update: I just ran across a mention (a comment on the youtube video of Diane Bish playing this organ) that indicates the Allen is being replaced with a Walker digital organ. Well, ok, if it's going to be of the same caliber, then that may be fine. I still think this one could and should have been repaired as needed, saving the church a million or two dollars!

**radagast** · 06-20-2019, 07:16 AM

This was a fairly well known organ in Allen circles. It was featured in one of Diane Bish's Joy of Music programs. Not only is it for sale on EBay, but the listing states the organ has been experiencing multiple electronic failures. About 50 boards have been replaced, with an estimated 52 more boards needing replacement. It's from the ADC era. I think they are going to have a problem getting their asking price of $75,000. I guess that is a problem buying that large of an organ.

**m&m's** · 06-20-2019, 01:55 PM

Price has come down to $49,999.00 OBO. Maybe someone there is reading our comments (and our minds?).

**jbird604** · 06-20-2019, 07:32 PM

I know that the allure of a "new" organ is strong, but still, I'm having a hard time understanding this, even after all the new info and thinking about it for a day. It just doesn't make much sense. An Allen TT-4 organ, even though 30+ years old, can certainly stand toe to toe with ANY digital organ being built today, by any company, Allen included. There just really hasn't been any better way devised to build up a large electronic organ -- each stop gets its very own dedicated generator board with a unique frequency reference, its own bass and treble controls, and "region" controls to scale the volumes from one end of the keyboard to the other.

Yes, Renaissance technology (and current technologies from other builders) can allow "note by note" scaling, but has anyone in fact pointed out that a single note in the scale anywhere on this organ truly "sticks out" because it is too loud or too soft? I think not. Besides, if that were to be the case, it is quite easy to build a notch filter to clean up the scaling, and Allen has offered to do that for decades, if a purchaser should find that a single note does in fact need to be "tamed."

So here we have the church almost certainly spending a million dollars, maybe more, for another organ, when Allen could surely have replaced every board that they think is "bad" for (worst case) a few tens of thousands of dollars. Did they even consider that they could've possibly cured all the supposed problems with a serious "routine maintenance" procedure -- cleaning and exercising all the pots, lubing the card-edge connectors, re-seating all the socketed parts -- along with re-foaming of all the mids? It just seems unbelievable that a hundred or more TT-4 boards have suddenly failed and need to be replaced! (Unless it was hit by lightning, and if that's the case, insurance should have stepped in and paid for repairs or replacement). Either they quit having regular maintenance some years ago, or else someone just got the "itch" for a new one and was sold a "project" by a talented salesman.

And here I go again, breaking one of my own rules -- ranting about something of which I have no first-hand knowledge! Sorry to get long-winded and cranky, but I just really would love to have a better explanation of what led to this! And maybe I'm a little jealous -- few of us ever get to play on an organ like that, and here they are throwing one away!

**jbird604** · 06-21-2019, 04:31 AM

This topic is of course being discussed in other venues, among them the "Facebook Organists" group in a thread started by Diane Bish herself. A person who seems to be either the Johnson Ferry organist himself or at least a member of the church and knowledgeable of the situation is taking an active part in that thread, and he states that the organ is being replaced by a Walker of similar size to the current Allen.

His stance on the replacement seems to be that it was simply time to do it, the Allen having fallen into disrepair and needing quite a bit of money spent on it, advances in digital technology since the 80's, etc. Almost like it's no big deal to spend a million dollars every 30 years for an organ. Things like that are totally a matter of perspective. A big church near me plopped down a couple hundred thousand for a piano not too long ago, and my own little church can't raise a couple thousand to get new hymnals. But should we be "angry" at the big town church because they bought a nice piano that cost approximately what our entire church facility is worth? I don't think so.

What I do worry about is the apparent "snow job" that the church got that led them to think that a new organ would somehow bring them closer to musical nirvana. I am afraid they will eventually discover they have been had. Makes me think of the time back in the 70's when I worked for a Conn dealer. I proudly sold a sweet little Conn to a church where it replaced an aging Baldwin. At the time, I was really sold on the Conn sound and considered it vastly superior to the old Baldwin because the Conn had all those independent oscillators in place of the 12-tone Baldwin system. But my boss went with me on installation day, and after the Conn was set up and playing, he sort of smiled as he put the check into his briefcase and said something like "well, just sounds like another electric organ to me..." I had to admit to myself that there wasn't really a huge difference, probably not enough for most people to even notice the organ had been changed out.

The Johnson Ferry poster mentions the long-standing relationship between the church and the Allen Organ Co, expresses only a little regret that they are going with another builder, and says their study of the current market found that Allen is basically "stuck" with the same sound they have had for years or decades, while Walker has moved on to "legitimate pipe sound" ... "more authentic pipe sound making up glorious ensembles." -- Isn't that the exact "sales pitch" used by Allen's various competitors when they talk about how Allen's basic tone generation system (Renaissance technology) has been around for some 20 years now, while their company has gone through four or five different "technologies" in the same time period?

Again, to me it sounds like someone did a fancy sales job on them, perhaps demonstrating a Walker somewhere with lots of air and chiff and such, talking it up as more "authentic" or "pipe-like." I really doubt that a new digital is truly "more authentic" as far as the harmonic composition of the tones, as Allen had that concept totally nailed a very long time ago. Perhaps that's why Allen's sound is "stuck" ...

It's really none of my business. It's a big church, and they've apparently got plenty of money, and at least they aren't going organ-less, as is too often the case these days. And I do know of a few 1980's Allen consoles that are showing their age these days. One very large one I installed back then has been played so much -- in a church with a fervent traditional music program -- that the key bushings are getting worn, the keys seem rather sloppy now, the pistons are being replaced one by one, the odd reed switch has failed, all the speakers have been replaced. One might say that perhaps this church should've just let it go a few years back and gotten the latest thing to replace it. If that's their inclination and they have the money, who am I to judge?

But oh.... how nice it would be to have just 25 ranks of TT-4 sound to play on Sunday! And these folks have grown weary of 150 ranks of it...

**John Vanderlee** · 06-21-2019, 06:49 AM

I heard from a reliable source that there were a lot of communication mistakes made leading to hard feelings that led to the demise of this eminently fixable organ.

**Leisesturm** · 06-21-2019, 11:41 AM

Hmmm. I'm going to go counter-current a little bit here and observe that, unlike pipe organ building which, of necessity, must be grounded on the principles of physics, acoustics and materials science ... digital organ design and construction made a HUGE paradigm shift when digital sampling was introduced. I should HOPE that the Walker instrument would be a perceptible improvement on the Allen by being 30 years newer! Baptist Churches of >1000 families are really mind blowingly profitable. If St. Thomas NYC can spend more than $8M on a 3m pipe organ I don't think it is that head shaking that a church with possibly better financial resources can consider a 5m digital that might cost $1M. Certainly the COL in the Deep South is better than that of NYC. I'm just pleased that an organ that can play the Classical Repertoire remains relevant to the Music Ministry of that congregation.

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Allen Custom ADC Organ 5 manuals 7 divisions 154 speakers 7600 watts

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