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Yet another "new" organ for Jbird604.... Rodgers Allegiant 677 this time

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  • myorgan
    commented on 's reply
    Ditto ^^ David!

    Michael

  • voet
    commented on 's reply
    Welcome back to the forum, David. You have been missed.

  • jbird604
    commented on 's reply
    Hello, David! Thank you. I trust you are well.

  • davidecasteel
    replied
    Congratulations on the new acquisition. Enjoy!

    Leave a comment:


  • toodles
    replied
    Before the computer crossover programs, crossovers were fine tuned by ear, and it can still be done that way. It can be laborious, though, but the results can be stunning.

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    I hear you on crossover design. Usually a losing battle to make up your own. If I had the room, I'd just bring in some Allen HC cabinets and quit trying to make my oddball collection sound good.

    One thing I did that actually helped though -- my swell channels speak through some old "Makin" brand speakers, and the crossovers in those things were strange. A 3.2 mH choke coil in series with each 10" woofer, a 100 mfd cap ahead of the two 6" full-range drivers (the two wired in parallel, presenting 4 ohms to the amp), and a 10 mfd ahead of the dome tweeter. The whole system has always sounded pretty crude to me, even though I lived with it on my Allen R-230. But today I decided to try to tame it. I re-wired the two 6" drivers in each box to be in series rather than parallel, and put a 33 mfd cap in to cross them over higher up than in the original design. To my ears, this reduced their harshness, and it brought their efficiency into line with the speakers I have on my great/pedal channels. I also gave the dome tweeter a 3.3 mfd crossover in place of the 10 mfd., and it sounds smoother and cleaner too.

    So that much helped, I think. Other quirks in the sound are probably due to the cramped arrangement of my nook, over which I have no control. At least for now, I feel satisfied with what I have, since there's no room for a set of nice full-size speakers.

    Leave a comment:


  • toodles
    replied
    Crossover design is very difficult and complicated. If only speakers behaved like resistors the design would be simple and textbook crossovers would work fine.

    Among the difficulties is the resonant characteristics of the drivers cause phase shift about the resonant frequency--the phase shift and spacing between drivers can cause signal between two drivers to add or subtract, and the net difference combines with the inherent response curve to get a net response. Balancing these out is tricky business. Adjustments are often made by spreading the crossover frequencies--the low pass crossover might be a little lower than the high pass crossover, or the high pass is moved a little higher; also asymmetrical designs are often used--i.e., a 6 dB low pass with a 12 dB high pass.

    In addition, some crossover designs incorporate "conjugate" filters--i.e., filters just designed to deal with resonance or with specific driver characteristics.

    In the "old days", as in before computer crossover design and measurement programs, most amateur speaker system designs included L-pads on midranges and tweeters--I suspect these were often used just to adjust for uneven driver response to find an acceptable response curve.

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Spent some time yesterday TRYING to tweak the speaker setup in my nook, but discovered that it's easier said than done. The engineers who design the excellent speakers such as the Allen HC and the Rodgers FR cabinets are to be commended for all the testing and refining and such, resulting in the marketing of fairly flat-response and nice-sounding cabinets. It's not so easy to use odds and ends, tied together with textbook crossover components, to come up with home-made speakers that sound as sweet. Anyway, I wanted to add a couple of choke coils to my design to supposedly flatten the response, but I only succeeded in making them less efficient, so I undid part of my tweaking. At this point, it sounds pretty darn good, so maybe I'll quit the tweaking (or maybe not...), especially since the Rodgers may not be staying here very long.

    I can't say that my experience is a significant indicator, but oddly enough, after selling THREE nice organs to INDIVIDUALS for their own homes in the past three months, I now have nibbles from at least two potential buyers who seem willing to pay enough for a home organ to get this nice Rodgers from me (if I don't change my mind about selling it). Not that I've made a deal with anyone, but just having a couple of people seriously inquire about it is unusual.

    This may indicate nothing, or it may say that there are getting to be more serious organ players and students out there, after a long period of decline in interest in organ study. I certainly hope this is the case. If I start getting regular requests for good late-model organs, I may have to start picking them up from further away in order to have good restored organs in the shop when people want one. For years, just picking up the odd 40-year-old organ whenever a church somewhere in the state got a new one was sufficient to keep the shop stocked. But perhaps we need to up the game a bit.

    I think I've decided to get the Main Board repaired on that Viscount G404, and have been in touch with the North American Viscount tech person. My own troubleshooting seems to indicate that nothing is wrong with it except the sound generation portion of the board being corrupted. If I can get it fixed, it may become my home organ, or it may be another nice one to offer as a low-cost practice instrument for someone out there. We'll see.

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    I continue to tinker with the Rodgers, and get used to it, though not really to "love" it. In recent days I've worked to get the speaker setup tweaked, as any irregularity in the speaker response seems to be very noticeable with this organ, and to a greater extent than it was with the R-230 or any other organ I've had in the house connected to more or less the same speakers. Maybe it's just because I "can" level and voice each note of each rank so easily, but I seem to be having to do a lot of that, and it could be because the speakers in the organ nook are a rather ragged collection of this and that. I'm gradually replacing some of the odd parts with better components, upgrading my crossovers to be more like Allen HC systems, etc.

    After weeks of tinkering, my feeling about this one is that they went to great lengths to simulate a lot of the quirks of real pipes -- jitter and air turbulence, sample breaks and notes that are simply different in color from the notes around them. Allen, OTOH, would've "fixed" some of these flaws rather than preserving them in ROM. But it's an interesting learning process, and I have gained enormous respect for the built-in voicing capabilities, which exceed any other organ I've owned by a long shot.

    At this point it's only a "nibble" -- but I've had an inquiry about selling this organ. I've priced it fairly, would be a bargain for the buyer and would repay me for my investment and the time I've spent, IF the guy is serious. So we'll see where this goes. It wouldn't be the first time I've been organ-less at Christmas...

    IF this one does sell, I'm wondering if this might be the time to go Virtual at last. I have a couple of organs at the shop that need work, but could be made to play with MIDI. There would be options -- I have an Artisan module, a Walker rack, a Content module, and of course I could use Hauptwerk or GO or another VPO system. Might get better organ sound than I've ever had before, but lose that integrated quality of the one-piece hardware organ.

    Anyway, life in the organ nook goes on...

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    commented on 's reply
    The one I just sold to the needy church actually was bought on ebay from the Allen Organ store, and was NOS. I think I paid $350 at the time, which included free shipping. I should keep an eye out for another one to come up. Right now I don't really need the playback function at home, but if I get another Allen organ for home use I may want the SmartRecorder to work correctly.

  • AllenAnalog
    replied
    Too bad you missed the three NOS Smart Recorders that the factory had on ebay a few weeks ago. I see a used one just sold there on the 22nd for $95.

    I finally had to give up the Viscount 3.5" floppy based MIDI playback unit I used for my Mills Violano. I had been warned that the drive did not lift the heads off of the diskettes when they were not being accessed and most of the time followed the advice to pop the diskette out of the drive when I was not playing a song. But after 12 years of use it would no longer read the diskettes so now I use an SD card based MIDI file player.

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    You know me -- anything I have is for sale under the right circumstances. So yesterday I had to sell my Allen SmartRecorder that I use at home! Yep, a church over two hours away with an Allen called and said their SmartRecorder was not working, and they desperately needed it for Advent. I packed up mine and took it with me to try to troubleshoot the situation.

    Sure enough, theirs wouldn't play any of their disks. Hooking up my own unit to their organ, all disks played normally. I made them a trade-in price and they agreed, so now they have my recorder and I have their dead one.

    Well, not TOTALLY dead.... Once I got it home and hooked it up to the Rodgers, I discovered that it WILL record to disks, just won't play back. So, since I don't need to play back anything at home, I can still record my processional hymns on the Rodgers, transfer the diskette to the computer to change the MIDI channels for the Allen, then take it to church to play it.

    And perhaps I can fix the playback circuit in the thing. Who knows what might be wrong with it. There are a few socketed chips that I can probably still buy somewhere, and maybe Allen still does factory repair on these. I'd have to check on that. Or maybe I'll just watch ebay and buy another one for not much money.

    So it goes in the daily life of the organ tech who WOULD have been a real organist!

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    commented on 's reply
    Since I'm the second owner, I can't be sure what the tuning was like out of the crate. But I did a factory reset rank and by rank, so I assume this really large offset on some ranks was the default. In order to get all the ranks reasonably in tune with the rest, I had to adjust some of them up or down by 10 or 15 cents. That's how far off they were. Not only were whole ranks very much flat or sharp of standard, many individual notes within ranks were off by several cents from the octave above or below, making it seem even more sour. Not pleasant in my book!

    Now that I have it tuned up tight, I have to wonder if I over did it. Maybe it would be more interesting if it were a little bit more random. There is a "random tuning" function in the menu that I can enable at varying degrees, and that, I presume, would intentionally sour if up. As time goes along and I feel more like experimenting, I may see what that does.

  • mlaird
    commented on 's reply
    It's funny that you're working to tighten up the tuning of your new Rodgers. I'm trying to loosen up the tuning of my new Allen, since I've always preferred Rodgers' tuning to Allen's. Rodgers' tuning always seemed "warmer" and more pipe-like, while Allen's always has seemed too coldly, mathematically precise and electronic-sounding. That said, 15-20 cents off sounds like too much, so perhaps you have more out-of-tuneness than what I've heard in other Rodgers organs.

  • jbird604
    commented on 's reply
    Oops.... Thanks for reminding me to change the signature! Maybe I'll be changing it again pretty soon
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