Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

I don`t know what to do with a young hopeful player

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I don`t know what to do with a young hopeful player

    I am 63 and have children 12 and 10 years old,
    Left it late , i know, but ...
    I have been playing keyboards or organs for years and am basically useless , i can only play if i have sheet music or books in front of me .
    If you take it away ,it as if you pulled the stop as if you pulled the plug out.

    Problem is,
    My son , who has never taken a interest in what the old man is doing in his cinema room with his music has now discovered something.

    With the VE remembrance item going on the TV and also with his school work ,of how to improvise of ideas, he asked me , what can i do , so i said play a song.
    I wrote the letters of "well meet again" on a song sheet and also felt tipped them on the the keyboards with with self glued white labels on the sharps.

    I played , what the song should sound like from you tube , then after explaining how to do what is where and semibreves ect , he picked it up, within a few minutes.

    So, here i am now wondering what to do with a seemingly , natural player?

    After x 2 practices and run through , i can take the sheet music away and he can play perfectly..., I CAN`T....
    So, we posted it on his local seesaw primary school learning page and my MRs face book.
    It went viral with lots of views.

    Thing is ,
    He finds online tutorials boring , me, trying to teach boring,

    I am afraid that he is a natural talent is going be wasted on me which as no idea what to do with him
    HELP please


  • #2
    So, is the son 12 or 10? It sounds like he's a hands-on learner and would do well with someone who can challenge a student who learns that way. Jazz musicians tend to work together in that manner and perform that way. Perhaps lead sheets (pronounced leed) would be a good place to start.

    Hope that helps point you a certain direction. Where you're in the UK (presumably), member AndyG will have excellent input on where to lead him to find a good teacher.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

    Comment


    • #3
      Maybe present him with a challenge project and see how he approaches it by himself. It will give you an idea of how he likes to work.

      Comment


      • #4
        Making sounds and having little victories is great fun. Playing music however, is real work. It can become boring. Before you continue with his music you should find out if this is a passing interest or will he be willing to really work. There are a lot of good garage bands out there. But a great talented musician always has to work hard.
        Regards
        Pat

        Comment


        • myorgan
          myorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          What 10 or 12 year-old boy wouldn't be attracted to hard work for no pay! Fun, curiosity, challenges, and creativeness are what attract kids of that age. Present it as hard work for no pay or some arbitrary future reward, and most are out of the picture.

          Michael

      • #5
        Originally posted by aeolian pat View Post
        Making sounds and having little victories is great fun. Playing music however, is real work. It can become boring. Before you continue with his music you should find out if this is a passing interest or will he be willing to really work. There are a lot of good garage bands out there. But a great talented musician always has to work hard.
        OMG. Did you ever nail this. I deleted my post last night and I am glad I did. I was trying to say what you said so eloquently and in hindsight, I failed.

        Comment


        • #6
          I was the exact same way just over 4 years ago and now I play at Sunday Mass every week. I suggest letting him just teach himself for a little and then maybe get him some lessons that don't make a huge emphasis on music theory. You would never want to throw natural talent away!
          “I play the notes as they are written, but it is God who makes the music.” - Johann Sebastian Bach
          Organs I Play:
          - Allen 2100(T); 1951 M.P. Moller, 3 manual, 55 stop, 28 ranks, (Opus 8152); and 1965 Balcom and Vaughan 3 manual, 34 stops, 25 ranks (Opus 690)

          Comment


          • #7
            OK, you may have a budding musician on your hands, or you may have someone who just wanted something to do and found following a few letters and sticky labels easy to do. No real way to tell - I've seen both.

            First thing is to ditch the letters and labels (I ban them, along with anything like E-Z Play music) and let the young man find his own way around making some music on his own. No sheet music, no theory, show him how the instrument basically works and see what he does. If there's raw ability there, it will show. If it's a passing fad, that will also quickly become apparent.

            If there is talent there, then tell him from the word go that he will have to work at it. Practice is essential and nothing good will happen without it! If he's not interested in that, then I'd forget it. Nothing will be gained. But if he gets that spark from making a bit of music on his own and is prepared to work at it, then first, I'd let him think about and then decide what he wants to play. I've offered many potential students the choice between piano and keyboard and shown them the differences. It's been a 50/50 split so far and while most have gone along quite nicely and a small number have given up, others have soared all the way to Grade 8 and Diplomas. I've only had a handful of young students wanting to play organ. Most kids think of organ as church organ and while there's nothing wrong with that instrument, of course, it's not what most youngsters want to play.

            Try a bit of gentle tuition once you know what direction he's going in, but remember that a professional teacher isn't just a player. Teaching is a whole new ball game! On line tuition is hit and miss and a lot of it is just a waste of time, with no proper feedback. Some of it is just dire, so beware!

            If you find you need a good teacher near you, then I'd suggest looking here: https://lcme.uwl.ac.uk/information/e...res-uk-ireland

            Contact the local rep for your area. He/she will know all the good teachers near you - they see all the exam candidates and know all the results! They can put you in touch with the right sort of teacher. Very few will or indeed can teach 'home organ' or theatre organ style - we've become a vanishing breed!
            It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

            New website now live - www.andrew-gilbert.com

            Current instruments: Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum Edition, Yamaha PSR-S970, Kawai K1m
            Retired Organs: Lots! Kawai SR6 x 2, Hammond L122, T402, T500 x 2, X5. Conn Martinique and 652. Gulbransen 2102 Pacemaker. Kimball Temptation.
            Retired Leslies, 147, 145 x 2, 760 x 2, 710, 415 x 2.
            Retired synths: Korg 700, Roland SH1000, Jen Superstringer, Kawai S100F, Kawai S100P, Kawai K1

            Comment


            • myorgan
              myorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              Andy,

              I was hoping you'd weigh in. Joner, you can't get any better advice that Andy's post. It would be difficult to emphasize the worth of his recommendations.

              I hope you sign in again and receive his advice.

              Michael

            • Philip Powell
              Philip Powell commented
              Editing a comment
              Yeah, let him "mess around" and figure things out on his own. I never used key labels, either. I think the best thing to do is to let him enjoy the instrument and get to know it.

              Andyg, when you said, "youngsters don't want to play the church organ", I think you're wrong. I am 14 and I have 1-2 kids a week come up and ask me to teach them the organ (I decline the offer of course) and ask really intuitive questions. I think that younger folks like me really admire the awesomeness and power that comes with the pipe organ. They just need to realize that the organ isn't only for old ladies. However, I always wanted to learn to play 80's music that involves the organ (of some kind), but I fell too much in love with the pipes.

            • andyg
              andyg commented
              Editing a comment
              A bit late getting back to your comment, Philip. I agree with you and it's good to know that you have youngsters asking you about the pipe organ, but I did say 'most youngsters', not all!

          • #8
            Thanks for the advice guys,

            Well, i have been leading him out to the organ to see what is what and if it is a fad or not.
            I used to have a Tyros 5 for a couple of years and he did not seem interested in that really, but ever since i have this organ he does seem more fascinated with it .
            I don`t think that it having a church type of look to it really bothers him ,he does seem to like mainly just picking a piano setting and sticking with it.

            I found that removing stickers off the keys and just playing simple songs through and have him watch a few times he does remember what i am doing then can play ,melody only.

            Problem is i find is that music of a 10 year old is vastly different to a 63 year old !
            Once i can get him used to a older 60`s tune which for some reason has been resurrected recently and he knows it from some you tube fad he can and will play it easily.
            He seems to play by ear, which i wish i could.
            The problem so far is all teaching music books all seem to revolve around really old music ,which i like, he does not .
            Most modern music , with in the last few years or so ,seems to revolve around a simple rift with a catchy back beat , not much melody to learn , learn 4 bars and repeat .

            I will never make a teacher , i have no patience , i tend to think he needs to sit down , read a music learning book and practice , get on with it .

            He heard a Liverpool football song a few times for a reason on his tablet (You never walk alone) and he knew the melody , so i pulled a book and played it twice.

            He then could play it all the way through on his own after a few times , all i done was the LH chord changes .
            Linking his interest , his ear to pick it up,finding music to interest him,a local teacher that can do this will be the way.

            Maybe a fad , it just seems that to be able to play after a couple of run through` s seem remarkable to me , but then it took me years to learn , maybe that is what i am comparing it to!

            Comment


            • #9
              Ask him questions about the music he likes. Don't accept superficial answers such as "I like the *trendy_word*" or "I like how it goes". Dig deep, and encourage him to be introspective. How does he define "trendy_word", how exactly "does it go", can he give specific examples in the music (such as a time index in a recording). You want to be encouraging active listing, getting him to really think about music, and to articulate what it is exactly that he hears in music.

              Sometimes kids give opinions on music based on what their friends say, or what they see in the media, not necessarily because they think that way about music. They may not have the knowledge or vocabulary to fully express their ideas, so they just reiterate what they have heard others say. This is where you can help by introducing descriptors to him: play him a sound, give words he can use to describe the sound he heard.

              Show him there is a lot more to appreciate about music than it just sounding cool, or not cool. See where he takes this, how he uses this new vocabulary to explore music further. This will also give you more insight into his interest in music, why he likes playing certain pieces and so on.

              Comment


              • #10
                I've been debating, but I'll share it anyway.

                When I was around 10-11, I challenged myself and taught myself to play the piano. I had a sister-in-law who gave me the basics, but wasn't very patient. I still learned from her, but it was discouraging to me.

                On the other hand, my mother knew I was interested in collecting stamps, but wasn't satisfied with me being interested. She'd bring out the album, the stamps, and would work on it "with me." Because she was so insistent in "encouraging me" in the endeavor, I lost interest. If I open the books, I can probably tell you exactly how old I was because it was probably the last time she bought a supplement for that album.

                The moral of the story is that while we can give as much advice as possible, none of us knows this boy, and I would suspect those closest to him will know what motivates him and how that is done best. Now we wait for a few years and see how it turns out. Too bad you couldn't talk to the boy's teachers at school, as they will probably know how he works best in a learning environment.

                Michael
                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                Comment


                • #11
                  First off, if you can sight read really well, don't sell yourself short. That is a skill that can take a long time to develop. Memorizing music, especially a large repertoire, is not something that everyone can do.

                  I would suggest he start taking private lessons, though not sure how that will go with the pandemic. I'd just start with piano lessons since finding a teacher for that should be easy. Still, encourage him to pick out some tunes on his own. Besides the instant gratification it probably helps a lot with ear training.

                  Sparing everyone here my life story, I think what helped me the most as a musician was just having a piano in the house that was always kept in tune, and always having access to play it (during reasonable hours). In other words, I could sit down and play my limited repertoire as loud as possible, or plink away at the melody of a song I wanted to learn for days until I nailed it. A few people I know, whenever they were fooling around with some instrument as a kid, some adult was usually telling them to cut out the noise.

                  Sparing you even more, I didn't care for taking music lessons as a kid and eventually quit. However, when I got back into playing music as a young adult, it took no time at all to pick it back up. The ability to read music, never lost it, which was great.
                  Hammond RT-3, Estey circa 1903, Baldwin Acrosonic spinet piano, Fender Rhodes Mark I 73 stage piano.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by joner4567 View Post
                    I have been playing keyboards or organs for years and am basically useless , i can only play if i have sheet music or books in front of me .
                    If you take it away ,it as if you pulled the stop as if you pulled the plug out.

                    Originally posted by joner4567 View Post
                    Problem is i find is that music of a 10 year old is vastly different to a 63 year old !
                    Once i can get him used to a older 60`s tune which for some reason has been resurrected recently and he knows it from some you tube fad he can and will play it easily.
                    He seems to play by ear, which i wish i could.
                    The problem so far is all teaching music books all seem to revolve around really old music ,which i like, he does not .
                    Most modern music , with in the last few years or so ,seems to revolve around a simple rift with a catchy back beat , not much melody to learn , learn 4 bars and repeat .

                    I will never make a teacher , i have no patience , i tend to think he needs to sit down , read a music learning book and practice , get on with it .

                    He then could play it all the way through on his own after a few times , all i done was the LH chord changes .
                    Linking his interest , his ear to pick it up,finding music to interest him,a local teacher that can do this will be the way.

                    Maybe a fad , it just seems that to be able to play after a couple of run through` s seem remarkable to me , but then it took me years to learn , maybe that is what i am comparing it to!
                    At the end of the day, this all comes back around to you. Who better to put your kid on the inside track so to speak than his old man? If you can't, that's fine, we're not judging but, if not you, then no one, quite likely. And that's probably alright because, and I've debated saying it, at 10 or 12, junior is running (quickly) out of time to get started and I just have to think if it was something of a passion, that he would have made that clear by now.

                    So, enough about him. Why do you think that musicians that can play by ear are superior to those who cannot?! That is a common theme in your messages. Truly, NO ONE plays better by ear as with written music! Performers who do not use music are not usually playing by ear. They are reciting music that they have memorized. That is a hugely different performance practice.

                    If I am reading between the lines correctly, you only began seriously studying music in later life. As I understand it, music and languages are very similar in how we learn them. There is a short window between birth and around 12 years old during which a person can become fluent in another language(s) (or music) with relative ease. After that, it becomes exponentially more difficult with every passing year to even become competent. True fluency will never be possible. The exceptions won't fill Wembley Stadium.

                    You derive a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from your musical activities but it wasn't something that has been a lifelong pursuit is it? Why would your son be any different? If you want him to discover music before half his life is over then YOU have to show it to him. It will mean overcoming your reluctance to take a more active role in his musical education. 9 year olds sing Howells and Stanford in Choirs of Men and Boy's. 5 year olds play Bach. There is no difference because of age in what music a person likes. I am 61, just a couple years younger than you but I am right up to date with both the newest music coming through the rock and roll playlists AND music that was already ancient when J.S. Bach (b. 1685) came online.

                    Much of popular music does not work on an organ anyway. Or a piano. To a hammer all problems look like a nail ... my old man ... he was a piece of work. We did not get along well at all. He was musical but I never saw it while I was young. When I was 50 I got a wild hair to learn French Horn. He was 86 and retired in Florida. On a visit I took my Horn down and he took one look and said "you would be better off learning Alto or Tenor Sax or maybe Drums". It might be a different (non-keyboard) instrument that your son needs to be exposed to for his creativity to really take off. Just a suggestion.

                    In hindsight my father was probably right. 11 years later I don't play the Horn any better than I could once I had learned where all the notes are. I've left it in the case for years at a time. I love hearing other people play Horn but I am not terribly motivated to play it myself. My Praise Band needs a drummer. Maybe a good use for a Stimulus Check is a set of electronic drums. It is not my intention to give offense, Joner, but I really feel for your situation. I won't overshare, but it hits very close to home. Figure out how to really determine how much real musical talent there is in junior and nurture it. Or not. Don't beat yourself up over where you are as a musician either. I'll wager a guess, however, that you have far more innate capacity to work away from the written page than you think.

                    When the Doxology has to be played right NOW and the hymnal is nowhere in sight because during your Offertory it fell off the bench ... ... many an organist has realized right then that they actually COULD play by ear (memory) after all!


                    Comment


                    • Philip Powell
                      Philip Powell commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Wow, somebody's into this topic!

                    • Leisesturm
                      Leisesturm commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Don't you have more time than usual for Organ Forum too?

                  • #13
                    Well,
                    I might be on to something , i try not to keep on at him because i can remember at that age (10) being advised what to do by my old man,NO. springs to mind.
                    So i gently ,while i am playing say, would you like a go ? "no, that`s ok thanks" is the reply.
                    Maybe a influence from modern tech seems what works , because,
                    Yesterday he came into our bedroom and asked to use the piano ,he calls it but it is a organ , this was 6.00 am .
                    So i took him outside in the cold ,( it is a separate building where it is so i can blast away to my self ) and he switched it on and played something that he found on you tube .
                    I have not got a clue what he was talking about, but off he goes, so he continued to play a song that was a type of pentatonic , or Chinese sounding music ,using most of the keyboard.

                    It was intended to be music for some kids thing that open a game with a haunted /creepy sound , so i said "well done" not having a clue.
                    He went through it a few times explaining about it ( means zero to me) and i agreed.
                    I looked up what he talking about was a full length orchestral based structure and he actually played it ! He has hardly used this organ , and he done that !
                    Problem is, if i ask to help him ,he says ,"OK maybe later" if i leave him , he finds his own way but, he does not find it interesting sat down listening to my way or teachings.
                    I am actually amazed that he can hear some strange music and play it !
                    I know how long it took me to pick up the little i know and he seems to listen and play.

                    It does seem a 10 year old has a brain like a sponge.

                    I don`t want to think 10 years from now , i wish i tried , because i have , i am so far away ..63 .. from 10 years old , not wanting to over guess the average age on here but ,imagine sitting down with what you know you how to do it and teach someone who as such a busy outgoing.

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X