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Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

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  • Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...



    There is another thread where there are complaints about a new pipe organ using extensions and borrowing and the resulting dropouts that come from that. Churches and other institutions do NOT have an infinite amount of cash. So would you rather have:</P>


    A pipe organ that uses borrowing, unification, and extensions...</P>


    OR</P>


    A toaster with all straight stops?</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

  • #2
    Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

    Well, for making music, I'd rather have pipes, no question, hands down, I'd rather have pipes, even if it uses borrowing (most organs I know use some borrowing, some more than others) unification and extension, I can live with, I'd rather a straight organ than extensions and unification, but given my choice between something like Reuter 822 (the core of John Rust's house organ, or is organ house, I just can't seem to keep it straight these days[:D]) or a toaster that was entirely straight, I'd take the 822.

    Now, if we're talking for the kitchen, well, then, I'd go out and buy a Sunbeam, Allen and Rodgers are just much too expensive for my Roman Meal bread.[:D]

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...



      OK..</p>

      Cathedrals, large parish churches, concert halls - pipes, pipes, pipes! No stupid hybrids! No ridiculous 400 lighted stop consoles that can spell out naughty initials
      </p>

      Your average parish church - pipes preferably (unit organs only if there is not enough space) hybrid organs I guess are acceptable if there is a lack of space.
      </p>

      Small parish churches, chapels - small pipe organ, but if it is crap and badly unitised - get a decent digital organ or even a reed organ or harmonium or piano
      </p>

      Your front room - a nice harmonium, a digital organ or the ultimate home organist's machine - Hauptwerk!!!</p>

      </p>

      Just a general gripe, not aimed at anyone personally, I very much dislike the word toaster used as a term for digital organs. I think it is derogatory and demeaning for the organists who play on them. It suggests that these instruments and those who play them are not worthy as those churches/institutions who are fortunate enough to own pipe organs.</p>

      Those who are theatre organists/home entertainment organists/keyboardists don't use the term to describe their instruments, so why are church organists?
      </p>

      I think many churches, especially the smaller ones would be very much worse off if there were no organs or organists at all. At least a decent digital organ can ensure, for the short and medium term, that the church doesn't end up with a poor 'worship band' or worse still, nothing at all.
      </p>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

        The term "toaster" is said with affection...at least from me.....yes I have a pipe organ in my home, but still LOVE to out to my garage and doodle on a Hammond with a Leslie....so....I ain't no snob ;)




        back on topic:


        Hands down a unit pipe organ over any electronic. ....if given the choice. If no choice I'd be thrilled with almost any organ in a nice accoustic...INCLUDING a plain jane Hammond C and a plain jane PR20 tone cabinet..I've heard one in a church in Brazil with tiled walls...and oh my gosh did it ever sound heavenly!


        Nice toasters can easily fool most ears into thinking they are real pipe organs, but hearing is not feeling and the unique spatial way pipes deliver their sound....it goes back to even when I had just 5 ranks of pipes.... the Reuter 822 was still speaking from almost 250 individual speakers (pipes)....versus it's digital Allen replacement at church which is speaking with 5 speakers and sounds like a plugged in dead corpse in comparison to approx 250 live and different sounds of each pipe of just a few ranks of real pipes.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

          Pipes.

          I've played very satisfying concerts on tiny pipe organs (both unit organs and trackers). I've also played satisfying concerts on terrible pipe organs as well. On a bad pipe organ I can usually find something nice to use.

          No matter how large or new the electronic, I am always dissatisfied.

          I suppose it is thesame with people - I'd rather know them in person thanhave to settle forphotos and recordings.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

            [quote user="radagast"]


            There is another thread where there are complaints about a new pipe organ using extensions and borrowing and the resulting dropouts that come from that. [/quote]</P>


            I believe this refers to an observation I made about a lovely pipe organ that had a very impressive stop list but only appeared to have 22 ranks. My comments were not intended to be considered as a complaint; in fact, I was asking if that particular use of the available ranks was a reasonable one. Several others then responded that they liked the distribution. And then some others commented that too much unification and borrowing could cause dropouts. I don't believe that those comments referred to that particular organ, however.</P>


            Nevertheless, I guess it is appropriate to ask this question.</P>


            David</P>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...



              I much prefer a pipe organ to an electronic when listening directly rather than a recording. Individual stops on an electronic can sound very convincing. The build up of a combination of stops sounds bigger and fuller on a pipe organ.
              </p>

              As far as unification is concerned, careful use of stops can eliminate the "missing" note problem which generally occurs when playing with both hands on the same manual. The missing note will tend to be in the middle of the chord cluster and is often not noticeable. Note that this only occurs if the same rank is used at multiple pitches such as 8' and 4'. The identical effect will occur when using an octave coupler on a "straight" organ. The positive aspect of unification, giving the organist the greatest versatility of selecting registration out weighs the negative effect of missing notes which can easily be eliminated by selecting separate ranks for each pitch register.</p>

              Note that my home instrument is a unit pipe organ. It performs very well for both classical and popular music. There is enough variety to match almost any registration on printed music. A larger straight organ equivalent to the unit organ of 6 ranks would be 20 to 30 ranks would take up too much room and be more difficult to maintain.
              </p>
              Allan

              My home organ
              Style D Wurlitzer pipe organ
              http://bluemoonwalkinghorses.com/Sty...tion5_rev3.htm
              Five Newfoundland dogs
              Sixteen Tennessee walking horseshoes

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

                [quote user="Greg"]


                OK..</P>


                ......Your front room - a nice harmonium, a digital organ or the ultimate home organist's machine - Hauptwerk!!!</P>


                [/quote]</P>


                A man after my own heart!!!!!</P>
                Mike

                My home organ is a circa 1990 Galanti Praeludium III, with Wicks/Viscount CM-100 module supplying extra voices. I also have an Allen MDS Theatre II (princess pedalboard!) with an MDS II MIDI Expander.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...



                  Somewhat contreversially I am going to say digital.</P>


                  Some might say its because I don't know any better, since I taught myself on an electronic organ, was taught on one and regularly play on one - but playing a good digital makes me happy and I feel I can get "a lot out" of the instrument. Perhaps I need to broaden my view but until I play a few more pipe instruments, I'll stick with what I know best and makes me happy and that is a digital.</P>


                  If I were to win the lottery tomorrow, and had a huge house or hall, I would still go for a digital.</P>


                  Each to their own really.</P>
                  1971 Allen Organ TC-3S (#42904) w/sequential capture system.
                  Speakers: x1 Model 100 Gyro, x1 Model 105 & x3 Model 108.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

                    If you were to win the lottery ... perhaps we could persuade you to make a tour of the world's finest pipe organs. [:)]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...

                      This one is easy for me. Pipes.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...



                        I have said it before, and will say it again.</P>


                        If the pipe organ is voiced well, doesn't have intermanual borrowing, and little unification and extension, then fine. But if the church cannot afford to keep the organ in tune and playable, and if the organ just doesn't sound good, then I would prefer something like a Phoenix orlate Rodgers any day.</P>


                        At home, I like my Hauptwerk setup. No matter what some on the Forum may think of their home pipe organs, I would far rather have the Hauptwerk setup, which I can voice, change the samples, and add more if I want to. Call me spoiled, but I like what I have a whole lot better thana Moller three ranker, which itself would be hard to put into my house, much less anything that would remotely suit me..</P>
                        Mike

                        My home organ is a circa 1990 Galanti Praeludium III, with Wicks/Viscount CM-100 module supplying extra voices. I also have an Allen MDS Theatre II (princess pedalboard!) with an MDS II MIDI Expander.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...



                            Surely, there is at least one pipe organ in Carbondale?</P>


                            David</P>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Enough complaining. Which would you rather have...



                              David,</p>

                              Oh, sure, there are several (including a nice AO Skinner) that I'm aware of, but they are hard to get to use. Plus, I've only been playing for 2 years. And, with no prior musical experience whatsoever, I'm sure I know the response to my request. Maybe one day, though!</p>

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