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Are they useful? How do they work?
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Re: 64' resultants
They're useful in the fact that they produce the sound of a 64' pipe without the full 64' length- you get the same sound, without all the expense. They're produced by playing two pipes simultaneously, the octave of the note you want, and the fifth above that. So for a 64' sound, you'd use pipes of 32' and 21-1/3' speaking lengths. (Something with the frequencies they produce combine to produce frequencies of a 64'.)
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A caviot though, occasionally organ builders will try and encourage you to add in a 64' stop, when they're really not at all necessary... -
Re: 64' resultants
I have played one on the organ of the Royal Albert Hall, London. Personally I didn't really see the point of it. It just sorted of added a 'rumble'.
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Re: 64' resultants
[quote user="lilshu"]They're useful in the fact that they produce the sound of a 64' pipe without the full 64' length- you get the same sound, without all the expense. They're produced by playing two pipes simultaneously, the octave of the note you want, and the fifteenth above that. So for a 64' sound, you'd use pipes of 32' and 21-1/3' speaking lengths. (Something with the frequencies they produce combine to produce frequencies of a 64'.)
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A caviot though, occasionally organ builders will try and encourage you to add in a 64' stop, when they're really not at all necessary...[/quote]</P>
To be precise, they don't produce the sound of a 64' pipe. They trick thebrain into thinking there is one 64' pipe. The same is true of a 32' resultant. The brain hears the 2nd and 3rd harmonic produced by the two pipes and "fills in the gaps". The brain is tricked in to preceiving a fundamental pitch that isn't really there. In other words, since the brain hears the 2nd and 3rd harmonic, it assumes the fundamental is there as well.</P>Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
[quote user="lilshu"]They're produced by playing two pipes simultaneously, the octave of the note you want, and the fifteenth above that.[/quote]That would be a 'fifth' above. The fifteeth would produce another octave instead of a quint.
One mistake is to evaluate these sorts of sounds (64s and 32s) by themselves; of course all you can hear is vague rumbling. If you add the stopto a very full Pedal combination, you can feel the gravitasof the Pedal increase - the key word is "feel".
If you don't feel anything, you are most likely standing in the wrong part of the room. [:)]Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
We had a couple of these, one 32' and one 64' at my old gig. They kind of failed...</P>
We replaced them with Walker digitals.</P>Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
in a similar fashion both octave and off-unison mutations create a resultant tone as well.</P>
the 8ft series of mutations is the 4' 2-2/3' 2' and 1-3/5' as well s the 1-1/7' 8/9' 8/11' 8/13' and 8/15'</P>
if you dranw the 4' plus 2-2/3' you will hear a light unision resultant being generated so that the two stops will sound at 8ft pitch rather than at 4' </P>
or 2-2/3'</P>
add now the 1-3/5' to the above two stops and you will note a yet stronger fundamental tone</P>
add the 2' and again a stronger unison resultant is generated</P>
similarly in the pedal the upper pitches can act to add strength to the lower ones in a comparative manner</P>
so few pedal sections have mutations that it is necessary to synthesize some on the manual to test the effects herein discussed</P>
to an 8ft pedal flue add a 5-1/3'</P>
if your pedal doesnt have one and most do not simply play the fifth above on a comparable manual stop</P>
comparable in power and color</P>
you will note a light 16' resultant being generated</P>
that is why some pedal divisions have a real or derived ''grand harmonics'' of say IV pitches</P>
usually can be 10-2/3 6-2/5 4-4/7 3-5/9</P>
these pitches will together generate a 32ft tone of a more profound and reedy quality when added to a full pedal combo</P>
a 64ft version of the above is the combo of 21-1/3 12-4/5 9-1/7 and 7-5/9</P>
if an organ is rebuilt once in a while a builder will take the surplus pipes from manual stops and make a grand harmonics 32 or 64</P>
when added to the full pedal the effect is astonishing as to profundity and reediness</P>
in the earlier 20th c when mixtures were becoming more abundant some fundamental errors were made when the compositions of these included overtones that thickened the tone such as tierces septiemes and even neuviemes</P>
senator richards of atlantic city organ fame wrote in 1949 that in retrospect he would not have included these very off-unision pitches in his chorus mixtures</P>
polyphony seems happy mostly with unision and quint ranks in the mixtures with occasional high tierces such as the terzzymbel begininning at say 1/3' and breaking every 6 notes</P>
those compound stops with off-unisons like septiemes and neuviemes are particularly useful with reed choruses as these sorts of mixtures highlight the overtones already present in the reeds themselves</P>
enough</P>
sorry to be so off-topic</P>
ps</P>
the first organist at liverpool anglican cath affectionately known as ''goss'' is said to have disliked tierce mixtures so that it is no surprise that today the organ there has quite a few unisons and quint only mixtures</P>
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Re: 64' resultants
LOL. Good one SB.If you don't feel anything, you are most likely standing in the wrong part of the room.
This is even funnier LOLROFL. Replacing one fake thing by another even faker...We replaced them with Walker digitals.
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Re: 64' resultants
I'd have to disagree with some of the former postees. I do think 64's are useful for interpreting certain literature in the GGG-BBB range. (Like Franck's Piece Heroique, or any of the B-A-C-H pieces.) Since all those pieces are played higher in the pedalboard, the 64' adds a noticeable rumble without being too quiet, almost as if you were playng a 32' down at the CCC-GGG part of the pedalboard. Neat, huh?
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Hope this makes sense [:S]</p>
This Youtube video demonstrates the said concept with the 64' Contra Trombone in the Sydney Town Hall:</p>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAtIDU3R2eQ</p>
Violoncello</p>Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
Thanks Havoc. Except the Walker stuff actually works.Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
I agree with Violoncello about the importance of 64' stops in some literature - especially pieces that are in B, B-flat, or A. When you play Liszt's B-A-C-H or Franck'sFinal or Piece Heroique, you gain a lot by having a 64' stop for the final note!
Sorry for the lack of diacriticals, I'm not on a normal computer. [:)]
Also, resultants can be quite effective indeed.
I play an organ with three 32' electronic stops and a 32' resultant. The resultant can be much more effective than the electronic stops, depending on the note played and the position of the listener in the room.
The three electronic stops died, but the resultant still works great!Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
[quote user="radagast"]
To be precise, they don't produce the sound of a 64' pipe. They trick thebrain into thinking there is one 64' pipe. The same is true of a 32' resultant. The brain hears the 2nd and 3rd harmonic produced by the two pipes and "fills in the gaps". The brain is tricked in to preceiving a fundamental pitch that isn't really there. In other words, since the brain hears the 2nd and 3rd harmonic, it assumes the fundamental is there as well.</P>
[/quote]I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. What you say about the ear and brain hearing the 2nd and 3rd harmonic and thereby assuming that the principal (1st harmonic) is also there is true, but there actually IS some of that frequency in the sound. When 2 tones are sounded together, there are "beat" frequencies created at the sum and difference of the 2 tones. As an example, if you play a 32' low C at 16 Hz and the fifth above it, that low G frequency is 24 Hz (ideally)--the difference between those pitches is 8 Hz (a 64' low C)and that tone is actually present, although at a very reduced level. For what it's worth, the sum of 40 Hz is also produced, and that corresponds to a pitch an octave and a third above that low C (and the 5th harmonic of the 8 Hz of the 64' sound). This is a principle taught in every basic Physics course. It is not clear which element has the greater impact--the "fooling" of the ear/brain or the faint, but real, quantity of difference frequency created.</P>
The ability of the ear/brain to be fooled is of particular interest in the case of tubular chimes. Those instruments do not produce the "fundamental" that we hear at all, but in the assortment of frequencies produced by them are pitches very close to the 4th, 5th, and 6th harmonics of the perceived fundamental, and we "hear" that pitch even though it is totally missing.</P>
As it happens, our new Klais instrument at my church does have a 64' Vox Balaena resultant stop.</P>
David</P>Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
David, I don’t think it is helpful to talk about "beats" when discussing resultants, because I believe they are two separate phenomena. Beats are produced when two sounds, similar in pitch and amplitude, occur together. The two sounds form a combined pressure wave, in which the amplitude varies in a cyclic fashion as the two sounds periodically reinforce or cancel each other. Celeste stops depend on this.</P>
On the other hand, resultants are what the ear (or the brain) hears when two or more sounds exist together. In the case of two sounds (to take the simplest case), two further sounds are perceived at a low level, corresponding to the sum and difference of the pitches of the two initiating sounds. Contrary to what you suggest the physics books are teaching, these further sounds do not exist in the real world (a microphone and wave analyser will verify this, I suggest), but are produced within the human hearing system.</P>
Resultant sounds can exist in the real world, but only where some degree of nonlinearity is present in the system. A badly distorting amplifier or speaker is an obvious example. Less obvious is the case of a very high pressure horn speaker, where the pressure wave within the throat is so high that the air itself is being compressed in some nonlinear fashion.</P>
One sometimes hears of loudspeakers being criticized because of the inevitable intermodulation or other distortion products that they produce, as there is always a degree of nonlinearity in such systems. I suspect that sometimes such criticism is unnecessary, if the "resultants" being produced by the loudspeaker are at a lower level than the resultants being perceived by the ear.</P>
John Reimer</P>Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, then. Whether or not it is "helpful" to discuss beat frequencies in the action of resultant stops, I believe that a Fourier analysis of the waveform would discern a 64' component.</P>
David</P>Comment
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Re: 64' resultants
[quote user="davidecasteel"]
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, then. Whether or not it is "helpful" to discuss beat frequencies in the action of resultant stops, I believe that a Fourier analysis of the waveform would discern a 64' component.</P>
David</P>
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This Wiki article explains it well. The phenomenon is probably neural and therefore a Fourier analysis would not reveal the fundamental or resultant tone.</P>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_tone</P>
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