Trespassing in Church . . .

[Menschenstimme]

Has anyone here every been actively involved in the need to have someone arrested for trespassing on church property? We cannot possibly go into the details here. But suffice it to say that our pastor wrote a very detailed formal letter to a parishioner who was stalking him (long, long story) and told her to stay off the property or be arrested for trespassing. Said letter was handed to her personally before three witnesses and we have written evidence that she did indeed read it.</P>


This woman is genuinely delusional (we have spoken with her brother, who is on our side) and she has convinced herself that she has a "right" to attend ourchurch. We had her arrested Holy Thursday night and again Good Friday evening. The police told us that because of the double offense, they we able to keep her until a judge was available Monday morning. God bless them for saving Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday!</P>


Needless to say, this situation is both regrettable and exceptional, because any sane person would just go away at this point and have no desired to continue to force themselves on a congregation who does not want them around.</P>


If anyone has had a similar experience, what happened in your case?</P>


Thank you and pray for us!</P>

[davidecasteel]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



I can't offer any advice, but this situation sounds very odd to me--a church that is trying to forcefully turn away someone who wants to attend. There are some very deep theological issues at play here. The first one is: "Whose church is it, actually?" The next is: "Is it really the congregation who does not want that person there, or just the pastor?" The third is: "Just what do you mean by 'stalking'?"</P>


Perhaps the proper solution to the situation would be for the pastor to obtain a Restraining Order to prevent that person from coming into his presence (since she was "stalking" him)--this would change any legal action from being one by the church (very bad publicity, and questionable theology) to one by one person against another. Instead of being arrested for trespass on church property, the arrest would be for violating the RO.</P>


Has this person committed crimes against the church (buildings or congregation)? If so, arrests could be made based on those crimes.</P>


I just think it's a very bad idea for a church to get a reputation for arresting "trespassers"....</P>


David</P>

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



Hi David --</P>


This is one of those 'you have to be there to understand' situations. Yes, we are also working on the restraining order angle. In a nutshell, this individual has beenso militantly intrusive and aggressive over the past 18 months that her mere presence makes people uncomfortable. This is way beyond your average eccentric parishioner (of which we have several). The pastor and entire parish staff want her gone, as does a large core-group of the most active parishioners. Churches are legally private property. She is delusional and fancies herself some kind of prophetess whose duty it is to tell us the error of our ways and insist that we correct them. She has also impersonated the principal of the school.</P>


There is no question that this is a very, very unique, tragic and difficult situation. Hence my desperate attempt to find someone who has had a similar experience in order to seek their advice.</P>


Our parish really needs everyones' prayers.</P>


Thank you!</P>

[Guest]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .

Well. This is a bit unrelated, but i snuck into a church in my town to play the pipe organ there. I played for about 10 minutes and then ran away when i heard the janitor coming. It was awesome. First organ i ever played.

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



Actually, Iamkellen - that is somewhat related. What if instead of running off, the janitor asked you to not play the organ without permission and you said that you were sorry and okay, you would not do it again. Then you started to attend church there. After a few weeks, you sneak in again and play the organ without persmission. This time the organist, or music director, or pastor asks you to please not do that again and again you say that you are sorry and that you will respect their wishes. But then a week later, you do it again. At this point, the pastor, at the urging of his staff, writes you a formal letter saying that because you are causing trouble, including emotional distress, etc., that you are now being asked to stay off the property or you will be arrested for trespassing. You are handed the letter with witnesses present and asked to read it.</P>


Yes, it would be severe to ask someone to completely stay away from a church for only playing the organ a few times without permission. But that is not the issue. The issue is that the church is private property and they have the right to make this decision, even if it is harsh. It may be un-Christian - but that does not make it illegal or even unjustified.</P>


Please keep in mind that the situation at my parish is much more serious and complicate that my hypothetical organ invasion here. It is so bizarre that it may be impossible for anyone here to fully understand it.</P>

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .

restraining order is the way to go. Some folks are just nuts and jail time or forced treatment is the only chance to correct their problem behavior.

[regeron]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



I know of a situation... a male church member in his 40's has emotional problems. They are being treated with medication, but sometimes he forgets, or he just gets so passionate about something that he blows up. He has a history of abuse and/or neglect within his own family. It got to a point where he was leaving very threatening messages on people's answering machines. Once he was yelling so loud in the pastor's office, that people came from the other end of the building to see what was wrong.</P>


This man claimed that we should accept and tolerate his emotional outbursts because he couldn't help them. He refused to admit that he had insulted people and brought a whole lot of anxiety into their lives. They felt threatened, both physically and emotionally. The church administration wrote a letter outlining these things and told him that he had to stay away. So far, so good. Although he does go around in the community, occasionally badmouthing the church for doing it. He NEVER mentions the harm he caused to others.</P>


Yes, theologically, the church has to be welcoming. But there are limits. And the person in question was abusing people without remorse. The church also has a responsibility to model and demand appropriate behaviour.</P>


Without a doubt, we all understand that sexual abuse is inappropriate in any circumstance. We need to see that other forms of abuse can also NOT be tolerated. If the person involved is unaware, they need special help, and unless the church has that kind of professional staff or volunteers, the 'troublemaker' is best off where good help is available.</P>


Never tolerate abuse!</P>

[Guest]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .

The Wall Street Journal had an extensive article on this topic a year or so ago. As I recall, a minister somewhere in the south had a troublesome parishioner arrested during a service (yes, cell phone from the pulpit). Turns out, however, that the minister (hired hand) was ignoring the church's constitution and was to some degree hijacking the church! Various members including the lady who was arrested had been attempting to keep him on-track. The individual was later allowed to attend services. The article said calling the police to intervene in such matters is becoming more common.

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .

[quote user="regeron"]


I know of a situation... a male church member in his 40's has emotional problems. They are being treated with medication, but sometimes he forgets, or he just gets so passionate about something that he blows up. He has a history of abuse and/or neglect within his own family. It got to a point where he was leaving very threatening messages on people's answering machines. Once he was yelling so loud in the pastor's office, that people came from the other end of the building to see what was wrong.</P>


This man claimed that we should accept and tolerate his emotional outbursts because he couldn't help them. He refused to admit that he had insulted people and brought a whole lot of anxiety into their lives. They felt threatened, both physically and emotionally. The church administration wrote a letter outlining these things and told him that he had to stay away. So far, so good. Although he does go around in the community, occasionally badmouthing the church for doing it. He NEVER mentions the harm he caused to others.</P>


Yes, theologically, the church has to be welcoming. But there are limits. And the person in question was abusing people without remorse. The church also has a responsibility to model and demand appropriate behaviour.</P>


Without a doubt, we all understand that sexual abuse is inappropriate in any circumstance. We need to see that other forms of abuse can also NOT be tolerated. If the person involved is unaware, they need special help, and unless the church has that kind of professional staff or volunteers, the 'troublemaker' is best off where good help is available.</P>


Never tolerate abuse!</P>


[/quote]</P>


Thank you, Regeron! We ALSO had this EXACT situation about two years ago. Your posting is very helpful and reassuring. What is most unfortunate regarding the situation aboutwhich I started this thread, is that we had no choice but to get the 'law' involved, because our abuser is so delusional.</P>


We are trying to be Christian also. We contacted the abuser's family and told them that if they could get her to go home (which is 3000 miles from our church) that we would drop the charges and pay any and all moving expenses. They are on our side, but she will not listen to them.</P>


Angels and ministers of grace defend us! --Hamlet</P>

[Hammondlover]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



I would take the church's side as well. It may seem un-Christian, but the individual may cause harm to others or themself if the issue is not dealt with. </P>


By the way, is it coincidental that the ads at the bottom of the page are for pepper spray and stun guns, LOL?</P>

[mach0415]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



Hello, I will agree. And let us not forget that just because we are called to be welcoming, church discipline is very well defined in Matthew, concerning the unrepentant (assuming the fellow is a Christian). Therefore, the church body is Scripturally justified in ousting an unrepentant believer, provided that the proper steps have been followed.</P>
<DIR><FONT color=#008080 size=3><FONT color=#008080 size=3>


Mat 18:15</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3> Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. </P></FONT><FONT color=#008080 size=3><FONT color=#008080 size=3>


Mat 18:16</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3> But if he will not hear </FONT><FONT color=#808080 size=3><FONT color=#808080 size=3>thee, then</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3> take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. </P></FONT><FONT color=#008080 size=3><FONT color=#008080 size=3>


Mat 18:17</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3> And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell </FONT><FONT color=#808080 size=3><FONT color=#808080 size=3>it</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3> unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. </P></DIR></FONT>

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



Thank you for the Matthew 18:15-17.</P>


[Y] [I]</P>

[Philip the organist]

Re: Trespassing in Church . . .



Our church is out in the country, so even though it is fairly large, we have never had to deal with strange types.</p>

However...back in January, two thieves smashed a big picture window in the back lobby and took some things for drug money. It was the middle of the night, so no one really saw them. They stole a cello and some brass instruments that had been left by the orchestra. Also they stole a TV from the nursery and kicked down the door into the pastor's office. Strangely though, God stopped them from touching the pastor's computer or stealing any part of the extensive sound system. Police were notified, and all the goods returned.
</p>