Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?

[jbird604]

Certainly there are as many opinions as there are pairs of ears, but I'm looking for some consensus on these questions. Just how loud or prominent should mixtures and mutations be in a well-balanced organ?</P>


Obviously, an organ blessed with numerous mixtures can afford to haveboth mild and bold mixtures. But in setting up this newly acquired Allen ADC4000 with only one mixture per division, I am wondering how to scale them. Right now, the swell mixture is prominent enough that turning it on or off has a profound effect on the color and power of the organ, even with all the foundations already engaged. The great mixture is much less prominent, in part because it is of a lower pitch composition.</P>


Of course, both can be adjusted over a considerable range. I'd like some guidance about setting them for a normal balance.</P>


Also, the Nazard and Tierce both seem a tadtoo loud to me. Unfortunately, both are located in control goups with other stops, so I can't really adjust the volume of either without affecting the levels of several other stops. In the past, when voicing organs with more latitude, I've tried to make the mutations considerably softer (pitch for pitch) than the unisons and octaves.</P>


In fact, a few years ago I was working alongside a retired but very knowledgeable pipe organ builder as we went through the full voicing process on a Johannus using Intonat. He wanted the Tierce in particular to be quite soft, and actually advised me to make it "disappear" entirely below middle C, which he said he had done in his pipe organs. I could see the reasoning -- a manual division could be coupled to the pedal and if the Tierce is drawn on the manual you certainly don't want those third-sounding pitches playing down in pedal range! Obviously, the Tierce is primarily useful above middle C or so. Below that range it loses its ability to "color" the unison and makes it sound like you're playing a chord.</P>


Any thoughts out there? Thanks.</P>


John</P>

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?

if its in a church I'd think you'd want them somewhat prominent so that they will be heard over the congregation singing. As I understand it mixtures were used primiarily in pipe organs that were of low pressure so that something of the organ could be heard over a large congregation singing in a cathedral.

In a home I'd think you'd want just the opposite, something that would be used only occasionally. I have a Rodgers 550 at my Mom's house and she wouldn't touch the Mixtures with a ten foot pole...nor would I....they are so powerful that they overwhelm and are very unpleasant to listen to...I have them voiced down as low as they will go but they are still too much in my opinion.

Regards Mutations: I agree..a soft Tierz would be best but depends on the diapason rank (if you are using it with that one). My Tierz that I use on my own "mixture" on my home pipe organ is off the Salicional and it really is quite powerful, but it works only because my open Diapason is quite loud.

A nice Tierz is delightful. A Nazard can be pretty strong I think. I think it would be best to have too soft rather than too strong though, but thats just my opinion :)

[jbird604]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?



Farmboy,</P>


Thanks for the comments. You are so fortunate to have real pipes to work with. It must be interesting to draw mutations based on various ranks. With electronics, of couse, we're normally only making them with flutes or rarely principals.</P>


You confirm much of what I was thinking. I think I'll leave the swell mixture rather prominent because our congregation can sing quite boldly at times and I may need it.</P>


Of course,ifa church has lively acoustics the mixtures can be much louder without seeming harsh. That might be another reason why the mixtures must be toned down in a residence installation where the room is probably a lot smaller than the typical church and probably much less reverberant too.</P>


Too bad those mixtures are so hot on the 550. You've probably already triedtoning them down with the tweeter control on the speaker. If you really wanted to get agressive, you could have an equalizer installed into the audio path of that channel, then you could locate and attenuate the offending frequencies.</P>


I'd agree that a Nazard can be stronger than a Tierce. The Nazard being a third harmonic of the 8' stop, it reinforces a partial that is already fairly prominent in many stops. But the Tierce,the fifth harmonic, would normally be at a very low level in most stops, and having it jump out at you can be a little unsettling. It only needs to color the 8' stop, not dominate it!</P>


Thanks again.</P>


John</P>

[Clarion]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?



John,</P>


To my way of thinking, for a church, the mixtures should be set up more along the lines of English/American romanitic voicing, with the mixtures <U>blending</U> pleasantlywith the foundational choruses of each manual; adding definition and brilliance, without standing out prominently on their own. Mixtures are not considered to be an important feature of bland-blah English organ music.</P>


Baroque organs, on the other hand, haveloud prominent mixtures whichmost people, including organists,describe as <U>strident</U>! While it might work well for most Germanbaroque music, I don't think they go well with most traditional most post-baroque romantic era church music.</P>


On my Phoenix, the English Romantic mixtures werevoiced by Phoenix to blend, rather thanbe intrusive; and I'm fully satisfiedwith that particular voicing. On the other hand, some of the mixtures on the Baroquespec, and in particular, the loud <U>strident</U> Mixture V! on the Great,<U>might</U> benefit from turning it down a notch or two; but after a year, Ihaven't been convinced enough to messwith it. While it's not all that useful for 80% of the stuff I play, it's still a nice touch for the other 20%. So my way aroundit, is utilizing thenicely 'balanced' Mixture on the Swell, by coupling it to the Great, which provides absolutecontrol over the prominence of the Mixture. I do the same thing with the Swell Reed Chorus, which happens to be very well balanced with the Swell Mixture. Coupleall of that stuff to the pedals,and you have a really easy to control organ where everything works together effortlessly in lockstep.</P>


As formutation stops, these guys at Phoenix are English Romantic all the way; and many of their organs don't have any mutation stops at all.So to get even a minimalarray of mutation stops, I had to go to a 3 manual 44 stop organ. (At least, that's what I told my wife. &lt;grin&gt;) Just kidding, actually. She is of the opinion that inviting a III/44 Phoenixintoour home, is one of the most wonderful thingsthat have ever happened to me/us!</P>


But . . . back to the mutant thing. On the Baroque spec, Phoenixsetup the Choir in the most anemicmanner, as if the Choir was merely a subservient unapreciated appendage; andtheir voicingof the Nazard and Tierce, IMOwas so weak as to serve no useful purpose. Keeping in mind, the balance maintained amongst the manuals on the Harvard Flentrop; I cranked up the entire Choir division to more closely match my concept of that Division. With three manuals, IMHO; balance amongst manuals is essential! With my particular situation, the dumbed-down mutations on the Choir weresomewhat less than useful. Bringing them up to Flentrop/Harvard specs seemed like a good idea.The first thing I did after theinstallation of my Phoenix, was to pump upthe Nazard and Tierceto make them effectivebuildingblocks in creatinga solo stops.</P>

[jbird604]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?



Clarion,</P>


Thanks for the remarks about mixture levels. Your thinking is similar to mine. I do enjoy a good full mixture though and find it useful for congregational hymns. Perhaps I'ma little bitbaroque anyway! (Or do I mean "broke?")</P>


I agree that the mutations must be strong enough to aid in the proper construction of solo stops, such as the synthetic clarinet and the cornet. I suppose the thing to be avoided is having them pitch-for-pitch as loud as the 8' stop, as that makes them sound like "one-finger chords" when you get down into the center of the manual compass!</P>


However, I've played a lot of old unit Conn organs on which the mutations were drawn from the single flute rank. There was, of course, no way to modify the levels of the mutations in that system, any more than one could do that with a one-rank pipe organ with 6 or 8 "stops" drawn from that single rank.</P>


On those old Conn organs, surprisingly one could use the mutations to create a clarinet or cornet sound quite successfully. I'm sure it wouldn't pass muster with purists, but it wasn't a problem for me as a typical amateur organist.</P>


The Allen T-12 organ is the prime example of a one-rank organ using this scheme. No difference at all in the volume levels of the various "stops" drawn from that solitary fluterank. But it doesn't sound too bad. (I wouldn't want to have to play one all the time, though!)</P>


Thanks again. Have a great week.</P>


John</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[Guest]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?



I have voiced many digital organs over the years, and this is what I have found to be a good rule of thumb.</p>

Mutations: For the Nazard and tierce, start with the 4 foot stop add the nazard and balance the volume equally. Add the 2 foot and then the tierce ballancing the volume to where they form a chord. In other words, the volume of the 4 ft, Nazard, 2 ft, and Tierce should be equal. If all are voiced with equal volume you should have a nice Cornet when added to the 8 ft stop.</p>

Mixtures: Set volume to personal pleasure but go back and check the volume of the mixture when used with a single 8 ft stop. If it sounds good with a single 8 ft stop, it should blend nicely with the chorus. </p>

The beauty of mutations and mixtures lie in the ears of the beholder but I have this works on most installations. Hope this helps.</p>

ncorganist
</p>

[Guest]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?

[quote user="ncorganist"]

I have voiced many digital organs over the years, and this is what I have found to be a good rule of thumb.</p>

Mutations: For the Nazard and tierce, start with the 4 foot stop add the nazard and balance the volume equally. Add the 2 foot and then the tierce ballancing the volume to where they form a chord. In other words, the volume of the 4 ft, Nazard, 2 ft, and Tierce should be equal. If all are voiced with equal volume you should have a nice Cornet when added to the 8 ft stop.</p>

Mixtures: Set volume to personal pleasure but go back and check the volume of the mixture when used with a single 8 ft stop. If it sounds good with a single 8 ft stop, it should blend nicely with the chorus. </p>

The beauty of mutations and mixtures lie in the ears of the beholder but I have this works on most installations. Hope this helps.</p>

ncorganist
</p>[/quote]Thank you for a starting point for balancing my own instrument when I can land it. I plan on a full bag of mutations for each Division, so that means a lot of 2-2/3' and 1-3/5', and not quite so many 5-1/3' and 1-1/3', ranks to balance with the Divisions' respective unison principals. For the mixtures by Division, I anticipate the need for a mixture level slightly on the strident side with only the unison principal drawn, in order to have the right setting for a Full to Mixtures registration.

[mpsnknox]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?

[quote user="jbird604"]


Certainly there are as many opinions as there are pairs of ears, but I'm looking for some consensus on these questions. Just how loud or prominent should mixtures and mutations be in a well-balanced organ?</P>


Obviously, an organ blessed with numerous mixtures can afford to haveboth mild and bold mixtures. But in setting up this newly acquired Allen ADC4000 with only one mixture per division, I am wondering how to scale them. Right now, the swell mixture is prominent enough that turning it on or off has a profound effect on the color and power of the organ, even with all the foundations already engaged. The great mixture is much less prominent, in part because it is of a lower pitch composition.</P>


Of course, both can be adjusted over a considerable range. I'd like some guidance about setting them for a normal balance.</P>


Also, the Nazard and Tierce both seem a tadtoo loud to me. Unfortunately, both are located in control goups with other stops, so I can't really adjust the volume of either without affecting the levels of several other stops. In the past, when voicing organs with more latitude, I've tried to make the mutations considerably softer (pitch for pitch) than the unisons and octaves.</P>


In fact, a few years ago I was working alongside a retired but very knowledgeable pipe organ builder as we went through the full voicing process on a Johannus using Intonat. He wanted the Tierce in particular to be quite soft, and actually advised me to make it "disappear" entirely below middle C, which he said he had done in his pipe organs. I could see the reasoning -- a manual division could be coupled to the pedal and if the Tierce is drawn on the manual you certainly don't want those third-sounding pitches playing down in pedal range! Obviously, the Tierce is primarily useful above middle C or so. Below that range it loses its ability to "color" the unison and makes it sound like you're playing a chord.</P>


Any thoughts out there? Thanks.</P>


John</P>


[/quote]</P>


Pedal Mixtures offten have 3rds in them. Love them or hate them they do add a certain... oh... que ne se kwa. But when it comes to voicing an electronic organ verses a pipe-organ we are talking about two totally differnt worlds. </P>


As for the mutations volume it all depends on what type they are (principle, flute, or Hybrid) and what they are being used with. To much quint, and mutations and mixtures begin to "quack".... to much 1 3/5 and the cornet gets "wangy"... great for French Classical... but not much else. </P>

[Guest]

Re: Mixtures and Mutations -- how prominent?

Circa 1978 the pedal plenum at Riverside in NYC was totally replaced from 16 thru 2 mixtures and the old pipes removed which were entirely from the 1930 organ recast as pedal voices instead of their original position as manual stops. The pattern was generally retained as to pitches except that the pedal fourniture III was redesigned begining at 2-2/3 rather than as previously at 3-1/5. I do suspect that when Jean Guilliou visited that when he suggested a Grosse Tierce 3-1/5 for use with the solo trompettes that possibly some of these former 1930 pipes MAY have been reused tho I am uncertain. Dr Walker graciously demoed the aforementioned effect to great advantage: the Guilliou 3-1/5 with the solo hi pressure reeds. All I can say is that the mutation located outside the box for lack of space added a n edge to those powerful reeds that was awe-inspiring. Maybe not tho coz recent specs published show that stop gone and a long-ago 2' fife reinstated. The original fife 1954 was of former doppelflutes.