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  • Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



    Hello again my organ friends. My adventures with the organ playing has taken an interesting turn. It seems I might have a chance to be an organist at a Methodist church. I have never been to one, I have been Catholic all my life. It is not so much the playing that makes me a bit uneasy as the fact that I need to get used to a whole different kind of service which I am unfamiliar with. I have a very open mind, and am willing toadjust to this new way.Next Sunday I will be going to the service for the first time. I have been doing my own reading online on it to give me an introduction but of course nothing compares to the experience.</P>


    Any help, advice, or suggestions will be highly appreciated, ESPECIALLY if you are in Methodism.</P>

  • #2
    Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



    Juniper,</P>


    Grab this opportunity because it may never come again. My good friend, John, grew up Catholic, but married a Presbyterian lady. They both attend the First United Methodist Church where he is the MAIN organist now. He hold both a BA and MA in music.</P>


    I grew up in a mess of confusion when itcame to what wascalled church,but a Presbyterian Church gave me an opportunity when I was very young. It was totally different than what I have ever been used to all my life.</P>


    Regardless of the denomination we are all working to go to the same good place regardless of what doctrine is taught. It will be God's way only. God gave you the talent and use it for His glory.</P>


    James</P>
    Baldwin Church Organ Model 48C
    Baldwin Spinet 58R
    Lowrey Spinet SCL
    Wurlitzer 4100A
    Crown Pump Organ by Geo. P. Bent, Chicago, Illinois


    Organs I hope to obtain in the future:

    Conn Tube Minuet or Caprice even a transistor Caprice with the color coded tabs
    Gulbransen H3 or G3, or V.
    Wurlitzer 44, 4410, 4420, ES Reed Models, 4300, 4500, Transistor Models

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



      Thank you for your words Tenor Trumpet. I will be taking this opportunity, and I feel somewhat more comfort now having heard what you said. This is quite a find. This church right now does not even have a choir, so I will be starting the music mostly from scratch, and they have a nice piano and organ.</P>


      I will be taking the chance.</P>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



        Will be interesting to hear how you like the change. And whether or not you actually"convert" or just do your job... I doubt you'll be offended in any way by the Methodist doctrines or practices.I'm a Baptist, and my experiences with Methodists have all been positive, and I think you'll enjoy it.</P>


        Biggest issue might be leaving behind a church family, unless you plan to continue going to mass and fellowshippingwith your former church. In my case, I feel a sort of familial connection with not only my own congregation but to some extent with people in other Baptist congregations in the area, with whom wesometimes meet in various rallies, conventions, etc. If you have strong connections like that and have reservations about leaving them behind, that might be something to think about a while.</P>


        John</P>
        <P mce_keep="true"></P>
        John
        ----------
        *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination

          I actually don't plan on leaving my church. Fortunately I have no conflict sinceI usually go to Saturday night or Sunday early morning masses in my Catholic church which gives me plenty of time yet to dedicate to this new church, maybe not just musically but in general. [:)]

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



            The pipe organ at my hometown Methodist church was the first pipe organ I ever heard in a live concert (my grandmother's church). Who knew a few short years after, I'd be the organist there for a 3-year span.</P>


            Let me recommend that you become involved with the people at the church and in their activities as much as you feel comfortable. If it's just "a job" to you, they'll sense it, and it will never feel right. On the other hand, if you demonstrate your commitment to them and their church, you may be surprised by the positive response you will receive.</P>


            Depending on whether or not this church has a "contemporary" worship style, or a more "traditional" worship style, or even a blend, you may have to learn the Gloria Patri and Doxology (Old 100th). It will be on the inside cover of the hymnal, to my best recollection. My Methodist experience was the first time I'd ever heard the Doxology with half notes in it! They also used the other Gloria Patri than I was used to.</P>


            If the service is traditional, then in addition to the above you'll probably have a prelude (5-10 minutes), offertory, postlude, 3 or more hymns, a choir anthem (when you start one), and possibly a special music slot where someone sings a solo, or a small group performs, accompanied by you. Occasionally, before the pastoral prayer, a church will have you play a soft verse of something on strings or chimes for individual meditation purposes. They may also have a children's story, and you'll have to play some traveling music while the children come down front and/or leave.</P>


            Just don't be shocked if their service is a bit more loose than the Catholic traditions you're used to. When I played for the "traditional" Catholic services at the local Air Force base, I was amazed at the amount of respect given to the Deity, compared to the Protestants who were treating Him as their Big Brother. Of course, a few decades have passed since.</P>


            Not sure if this helps you prepare, but your attendance at the service should answer many questions you might have.</P>


            Michael</P>


            P.S. I forgot, Communion (Eucharist) usually happens only once per month at the end of the service, and you will be expected to play while the parishoners are being served in the pews. One musical piece while the bread is passed out, then you stop, and everyone partakes at once. Another musical piece while the wine (grape juice) is passed out, then you stop, and everyone partakes at once. You'll get the hang of it.</P>
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



              Methodist churches run the gamut of worship styles. Most of the advice in the other posts seem to reflect one particular church the writer is familiar with, but you may find something completely different with your congregation. There are multiple possibilities for gloria patris and doxologies as well as the way the Communion service is observed. (for instance, we only use the "Old Hundredth" during Advent and Lent). I trust you have explored this church's service style before signing on.</P>


              Look at worship folders (bulletins) from previous services to get a feel for the music and worship style. You may want to <U>slowly</U>introduce changes. One common thread with most United Methodist congregations is that they love to sing. If you are used to Catholic hymn singing, this may come as the biggest shock. Good luck!</P>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



                I'd imagine it would be easier for a Catholic organist to play a Protestant service, than the other way around. The liturgy in a Catholic church seems to require many short musical responses -you have to really be on your toes! Catholic services seem to require an organist who canimprovise freely; this is not quite as important in a Protestant service unlessthe churchhas a very demanding music program. As pipecutter mentioned, you may be surprised to find a congregation which fully participates in singing - perhaps in parts too.</P>


                You might want to invest in some free accompaniments to spice up your hymn playing - these are typically played on the last verse of a hymn; everyone would then sing unison because the underlying harmonies can be quite different. It can be a very exciting thing to hear. Some of the best accompaniments are by T. Tertius Noble... you can't go wrong with his accompaniments. Another option is to have a soprano descant for the last verse.</P>


                Free accompaniments and descants are nice to have... but are certainly not requirements. You might want to do these only on special occasions, at least until you become accustomed to the services and traditions ofyour newchurch.</P>


                Please keep us posted. [:)]</P>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



                  As a Methodist for my entire life, with experience both in the North and in the South, I guess I can afford to chime in here a little. I'm not an organist (not one worthy of the name) but I've sung in church choirs for 62 years, most of them Methodist (the others were USAF general Protestant services).</P>


                  It is true that Methodist worship in the US runs the gamut from "low" to "high", with the "low" end having almost no music other than hymns (which might even be unaccompanied) and the "high" end resembling an Episcopalian service. Soubasse 32 is correct that it is probably a lot easier for a Catholic organist to play for a Methodist service than it would be for the other way around. To begin with, there are typically only 2 documents that you will need to pay attention to: the Bulletin, which contains all the elements of the order of worship for that day; and the Hymnal, which is the source book for the hymns, service music (Doxologies and Gloria Patri, and occasionally others--all listed in the Bulletin), and other worship aids (Calls to Worship, unison prayers, Creeds, Psalter, Responsive Readings, etc.--these are also listed in the Bulletin). Therefore, the Bulletin is the main guide and it guides you through the sequence of the other parts of the service. If the church has the facilities, sometimes a lot of the resource elements are printed in the Bulletin so that reference to the Hymnal for them is unnecessary. (You may find that the words of those and even the hymns are projected on screens, but you don't have to worry about that--you will need the hymnal in any case.) The UMC does have several extra add-on hymnals that contain mostly Praise Choruses and new hymns, and your church might use a lot of music from those. Although the primary Hymnal has full 4-part accompaniment for all hymns and most service music , those supplementary books don't always have it and it is essential to have the accompaniment ("Organist version") book to play from. (If you are lucky, you won't have to play out of those.)</P>


                  There is an "Organist version" of the primary Hymnal, too, and it even contains some optional descants and alternate harmonizations for some of the hymns. (Don't be confused by the "Piano version", which is essentially just a regular hymnal with a loose-leaf binding. Those are useful, but there is more good stuff in the "Organist version".)</P>


                  A "middle" to "high" Methodist service will probably be organized something like this:</P>


                  Organ Prelude (depending on circumstances, this might be 1 to 5 minutes long)</P>


                  Welcome and Announcements (by the Pastor)</P>


                  Call to Worship (by the Pastor or by the Choir: usually pretty short--may be from Hymnal service music or not)</P>


                  A Hymn (organ accompaniment)</P>


                  A Creed (typically the Apostle's Creed, but there are several others--all are in the Hymnal, but may be printed in the Bulletin)</P>


                  The Gloria Patri (from the Hymnal--there are 2 different ones, but most churches seem to use the Meineke)</P>


                  A Scripture Lesson (possibly Old Testament)</P>


                  The Pastoral Prayer (usually no music here, but some churches like a short quiet interlude for meditation)</P>


                  The Lord's Prayer (said by all)</P>


                  The Offertory (where there is a choir, an anthem is usually sung here; otherwise, organ music)</P>


                  A Doxology (from the Hymnal--there are several: the most common are the OLD 100TH and LASS UNS ERFREUEN tunes)</P>


                  A Hymn (organ accompaniment)</P>


                  A Scripture Lesson (often read by the Senior Pastor or person giving the sermon, on the sermon topic)</P>


                  A Children's Sermon (optional; usually not by the Pastor, but could be; traveling music for the children before and after expected)</P>


                  The Sermon (depending on the level of worship service, this can be from 10 to 25 minutes long)</P>


                  An Invitation (Baptists call it an "Altar Call"--it's just a call for anyone who wants to join the church to come down during the next item)</P>


                  A Hymn (organ accompaniment)</P>


                  Introduction of anyone who answers the Call</P>


                  The Benediction (by the Pastor)</P>


                  A Benediction Response (optional--may be by the choir or sung by entire congregation--a simple response)</P>


                  The Postlude (organ music--however long you can handle by the service timing and your personal needs)</P>


                  Other elements that are sometimes found are Responsive Readings or Unison Prayers, both of which require congregational participation; a reading from the Psalms is another possibility (there is a sizable Psalter in the Hymnal--some of the Psalms have musical responses). Some churches may have more or fewer hymns and/or Scripture Lessons. Sometimes other elements are left out, as well.</P>


                  Most places in the service where there is no singing and I didn't indicate music as being required above will not usually have any background music. I have heard that there are a few churches that want "fill" music all through their services, but I've never encountered one in my many years.</P>


                  Finally, there are periodic occurrences of Baptisms and/or Communion (Eucharist) elements in the services. Methodist generally do not have separate services for these rites, but incorporate them into the Sunday service Order of Worship when needed. (The Pastor usually shortens his sermon to make time, or a hymn or other element is left out. Communion may be served in a number of different ways, and the musical requirements for each method are different--you'll need to consult the Pastor about what is expected. By the way--you won't find any wine at the Communion process--unfermented grape juice is used instead (Welch's, most likely). There are several Orders of Worship for both types of service in the Hymnal, and Communion may have service music involved.</P>


                  One of the problems you may encounter (a lot of organists do) is that it might be hard to get a list of the hymns to be used each Sunday. Since the Catholic church does not have the same tradition of hymnody that Protestants do, I suspect you will want to have time to practice those hymns, and so it will be highly desirable for you to be given the list some time in advance of Sunday mornings. Also, if the church does publish a Bulletin for the services (some small ones do without and just announce what comes next), they may want to know what you intend to play for the Prelude and Postlude so that it can be included. These logistical matters are things you will need to get clarified. Some churches require the music staff (you) to pick the hymns to be sung; if this is the case, do try to get what the sermon topic will be so an appropriate hymn before the sermon can be selected.</P>


                  I have not mentioned weddings and funerals/memorial services. These are highly individualized and will have to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. You will find that many of these services have quite a lot of music. Typically, these will be extra services not covered by your salary and paid by the persons requesting the events.</P>


                  I hope that this is helpful. As usual, I have had "diarrhea of the fingers" again. It is difficult to give a concise idea of Methodist worship practices because there is so much flexibility possible. Just study each week's Bulletin (get an early draft, if you can!) and work from there.</P>


                  David</P>
                  <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                  <P mce_keep="true"></P>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



                    David made a good point about the bulletin - that isyour 'road map' for any given service. I usually mark the bulletin with a red pencil, showing which pieces I must play and any other info such as whether I should move to the piano or organ. [:)] I'm careful to mark when I need to segue between pieces, or if I might need to avoid making a segue. That spares the embarassment of playing just as the minister is about to say something. [:$]</P>


                    I make note of how many verses should be sung, just as a reminder.</P>


                    I also note which pistons I'm using. If I've already usedcertain pistonsfor the Prelude I'll probably want to avoid those when registering the Offertory for example.Listing all of the in-use pistons on the bulletin helps me keep track.</P>


                    If I doa free accompaniment Ijot downthe composer'sname- I keep all of my bulletins so thisreminds mehow often I've played a certain accompaniment. I alsomake note ofspecial events, such as whena friend or family memberis in the congregation- it all goes into my archive. [8-|]</P>


                    Other than the bulletin I typically only have a single black binder with all of my music. I tend to copy most of my music so I can three-hole punch it and keep it inservice order. I enlarge the hymns to fit an 8 1/2" x 11" format; this also allows me to make annotations on the hymns such as breath marks, piston changes, anyreminders I might want to make. As for the longer pieces, I often reduce them so that page turns are not a problem. </P>


                    If there is a lot of music on a given day I might use a binder clip to help me keep my place in the music - that's especially handy if I have to carrythe binder between various instruments; it minimizes the amount ofmusic shuffling I have to do once I'm seated. I'm visible to the entire congregation so Ihave to plan such things in advance.</P>


                    That'sno doubt morethan you wanted to know, but perhaps you will find some of it useful.</P>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



                      Juniper,</P>


                      The bulletin will be your "road map" for a given service. Another suggestion is to watch a Methodist Service on TV. You can find them on most any Sunday on TV and the radio. Our local FUMC is on both. There may be some differences, but not all that much.</P>


                      James</P>
                      Baldwin Church Organ Model 48C
                      Baldwin Spinet 58R
                      Lowrey Spinet SCL
                      Wurlitzer 4100A
                      Crown Pump Organ by Geo. P. Bent, Chicago, Illinois


                      Organs I hope to obtain in the future:

                      Conn Tube Minuet or Caprice even a transistor Caprice with the color coded tabs
                      Gulbransen H3 or G3, or V.
                      Wurlitzer 44, 4410, 4420, ES Reed Models, 4300, 4500, Transistor Models

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



                        [quote user="pipecutter"] Most of the advice in the other posts seem to reflect one particular church the writer is familiar with, but you may find something completely different with your congregation. [/quote]</P>


                        Wouldn't it be foolish to give advice based on a church I'd not attended?[:^)] Hmmmm.</P>
                        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                        • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination

                          [quote user="myorgan"]


                          [quote user="pipecutter"] Most of the advice in the other posts seem to reflect one particular church the writer is familiar with, but you may find something completely different with your congregation. [/quote]</P>


                          Wouldn't it be foolish to give advice based on a church I'd not attended?[:^)] Hmmmm.</P>


                          [/quote]</P>


                          I was merely pointing out that a number of absolutes were being offered up as the standard at Methodist churches when there are almost none within the denomination. SB32 and David C. did a good job of summing up many of the common threads. Besides playing for a United Methodist congregation, I have attended, as well as played for, dozens of other UMC services. I have no doubt that Communion was served at your grandmother's church just as you stated, but I have never experienced that format at any UMC service I have witnessed. Furthermore, you seem to be referring to the old Methodist hymnal.</P>


                          To answer your question, I would not consider your advice to be foolish, just based on limited experience.</P>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



                            pipecutter, that mode of partaking of Communion was the norm in Detroit, Michigan when I was growing up in the 1940s and 1950s. I haven't worshipped there since I left in 1960, so I cannot say whether it is still done that way. My church here in Richardson (suburb of Dallas) uses the Intinction method with the congregants kneeling at the Altar Rail. It is the first UMC I've attended that used that method; all the others had used the little cups of juice, with several procedures for distributing them and partaking of the elements (sometimes as they are served, sometimes all hold them and partake together). Since I've not done Communion at other UMCs in this area, the way my church does it may be typical of the area, or may not be. I do know that most MCs (UMC didn't exist yet) in Detroit used the little cups. It is possible that this is just another of the differences between the Northern and Southern Methodist Churches.</P>


                            BTW, I don't remember any Methodist Hymnals that had the service music in the front and back covers as they were published: some churches did paste copies of some service pieces in those places for the convenience of the organist/pianist and the congregation, though.</P>


                            David</P>


                            p.s.: I hope no one thinks I was giving afixed templateof a UMC worship service--I was just trying to include most of the elements that might be found in a typical church large enough to have an organist/pianist and a choir. Small, rural Southern churches will generally have much more informal services with a lot of the items I listed left out; very "high" Northern churches will have all the elements of the Roman Mass as well as most of the items I listed--some of them could easily be confused by the uninitiated with Episcopalian or even Anglican services. (When I said there was a large gamut of worship styles in the UMC, I meant it!) Although the Order of Worship I listed does fairly closely follow that used in my local church, there will be differences between it and those used by other similar UMC churches in the area. We have the Offertory and Doxology before the Sermon, for example, because it makes the logistics of the choir easier during the final service each Sunday; many churches prefer to have those elements following the Sermon (I think they think that a good Sermon encourages the pew-sitters to cough up more money [;)]). We have only 2 hymns usually because it saves time for a longer Sermon (oh, well). Sometimes we have an extra Anthem, which will occur early in the service (probably before the Sermon, with the Offertory/Doxology after the Sermon for a change). We musicians don't get bored.</P>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Taking a job at a church of a different denomination



                              Mr. Casteel: I think your "template" covered the vast majority of traditional United Methodist churches. As to Holy Communion, I've seen it take most every form you can imagine. Though Intinction is my congregation's most common method, we've done it other ways just to keep things fresh. There are many Methodist churches that resemble Southern Baptist congregations in their service styles. I have seen the Baptistsuse the"sit in the pew and pass the elements" style there so I have no doubt there are other denominations that utlize that system. I have also seen the old Methodist hymnals where they paste service music inside the front and back covers. At least in my part of the world, these service elements would have been more common 25+ years ago. (am I showing my age!)</P>


                              All that aside, the original question was "what to expect" in the service of a denomination with which he was not familiar. The best anwer is to consult the bulletin as an outline and ask questions of the staff as to the logistics. </P>


                              The only denomionation I have ever played for where you can cite one service as being common to every congregation is the Christian Science church. Mary Baker Eddy set the ground rules and they are not to be tampered with!!!</P>

                              Comment

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