Rock Musicians and Real Organs

[beel m]

You could not be more correct. I'm thinking of the true story about how Gaylord "Flicker Fingers" Carter, one of the finest theatre organists in the world in his day, once went on a European organ tour. He later told of how at one historic instrument, they were all invited to play. He improvised something in the style of a "gavotte"- that must have been something! But the host musician practically pushed him off the bench with tart remark "There'll be no jazz played on this organ!"
Ah, arrogance...
Bill Miller, Phila PA

Without meaning to sound contradictory (well, okay, maybe I do), I have serviced many hundreds of electric-action and electro-pneumatic instruments (probably approaching 1,000) over the past 30+ years, and have encountered only one instrument I can remember that didn't have a crescendo pedal. However I can't even begin to count the numbers that have no combination action. As a percentage I would estimate as high as 10%. A crescendo pedal is an extremely simple (and relatively inexpensive) item to include in an instrument, whereas a combination action (excepting solid-state) is neither simple nor inexpensive.



At the risk of sounding my age, the levels of arrogance you have achieved are nothing short of astronomical. Hopefully as you increase in age you will also increase in wisdom, temperance, and understanding. In my humble opinion, there is *nobody* who has a desire to be near a "real" organ (excepting someone who is bent on damage or destruction) who should be prevented from playing, no matter the kind of music they play. There is nothing they are going to do to hurt it as long as they understand how to properly use it (and I hope if they're not familiar with it someone can guide them through the process).

Whether or not any of us "like" the music they play has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is genuinely music or art. If that were the standard to which we were to attain, then there would not be a single piece of music anywhere, from any time period, that could be considered music. Have you ever heard a piece that *everyone* likes? Painting with a broad brush, the music that does more than scratching a momentary itch, that reaches into the soul and touches something deeper, will stand the test of time and will last. It is, however, all music, like it or not.

And if not, don't listen. Nobody is holding a gun to your head (at least I don't think so). But if you don't want to listen, don't work to prevent anyone else from listening, or denigrate those who do and happen to like it.

Just by example, I was listening to Pipedreams last night, and while the piece I was hearing at the moment was technically complicated, very musical, well performed, and highly regarded, it was a drain on both my ears and sensibilities. I turned it off, but I know there were others who would have been quite enthralled by it. Because I didn't like it, should I demand it not be played again, or rant to others that it is not musical? Each to his own, I say.



While it is not common, there are programmable crescendo pedals going back many decades, though generally the programming is left to the builder or service technician. I am personally familiar with programmable pedals going back at least to 1948, and I believe some are older. With today's technologies it is becoming very common to have programmable crescendo pedals, with multiple pedals available on each level of memory in some of the more sophisticated systems.

Kind regards,
Shawn

- - - Updated - - -



Do you think that by letting a few rock/pop musicians near the organ we are going to be in danger of having the only music played on the organ being rock/pop? History would prove you wrong on that. Rock/pop musicians have been using "real" organs for as long as I have been aware, but they have neither taken over the organ world nor endangered the instrument in any way.

Personally, I believe it is our own collective arrogance in the organ world (not wanting to associate or share our art with the likes of *THEM*!!, or working hard to convince others what sort of music they *should* like if they are going to be *real* musicians) that has done the greatest damage to our chosen art form and instruments. And it would seem we haven't learned from the past, as another generation appears to be repeating it.

Sigh. Back to completing the contracts for two instruments we'll be building later this year that will (*GASP*) be equipped in a way that the rock musicians in the "alternative" worship service can use - and enjoy - our art in a way that is, in its own way, an art form, whether or not it is my cup of tea.

Kind regards,
Shawn

[davidecasteel]

SubBase wrote: " I am lactose-intolerant-intolerant." Well, we should be good, then. I am not lactose-intolerant--I simply cannot stand the taste or smell of any spoiled milk product (cheese, sour cream, yoghurt, clotted cream, curds & whey, buttermilk, etc.). I am fond of milk (preferably pasteurized and homogenized) and ice cream. Now--my indifferent abilities as an organist might be cause to deny me access to an organ....

David

[Derek inthesun]

So you don't like music that is not church based ? and think someone that plays other types of music is a lesser player ?. You are so of the mark it's untrue. I don't mind church music, I like most music in fact and reading your narrow view on things makes me a bit sad. You are missing out on so much great stuff. I also think that your narrow view just helps the slow decline of Organ playing in general.

Regards
Derek

[Analog]

So you don't like music that is not church based ? and think someone that plays other types of music is a lesser player ?. You are so of the mark it's untrue. I don't mind church music, I like most music in fact and reading your narrow view on things makes me a bit sad. You are missing out on so much great stuff. I also think that your narrow view just helps the slow decline of Organ playing in general.

Regards
Derek

Well said Derek

[Sathrandur]

Let's clear some things up.

FIRSTLY: I do appreciate organ music that is not specifically for a church setting. Much of the works of Bach, Reger, Widor, Vierne, Guilmant, Mendelssohn, Buxtehude, etc. were 'secular' organ works. The fact that many of the organs to play those works on are in churches is irrelevant and does not make it church music by nature. So to suggest that pipe organ music is purely liturgical is plain ignorant.

SECONDLY: as far as I am aware only pipe organs had crescendo pedals. Therefore I assumed that only pipe organists would be visiting this thread, not Hammondists or otherwise. Thus my little poke at rock organists (I didn't think they used real pipe organs anyway) was for the benefit of other pipe organists who know where I was coming from in terms of musical taste.

THIRDLY: my comments did not pertain to any kind of musicians, just certain types of music. Someone tell me of a contemporary pop composer that knows how to write three or four part counterpoint, or even knows what a fugue is and has actually used it in their music. My thoughts on rock/pop music are based on my evaluations in regard to its musical qualities of all types (structure, harmony, voice leading, development, etc). I actually think modern rock/pop music actually has some responsibility for the decline of pipe organ music, but that's another discussion.

Therefore, I APOLOGISE IF ANYONE WAS OFFENDED BY ANY COMMENTS THAT WERE MADE WHICH I SUSPECT WERE MISUNDERSTOOD. I have merely a great deal of frustration towards modern rock/pop music on a number of levels and sometimes it just comes out.

[Derek inthesun]

I accept your apology but it was not misunderstood. Your stance with regard to other styles of music was overly apparent and if you put it in your post for the amusement of a select few it shows ignorance on your part.
The situation that organs and organ playing is in at the moment needs all the help it can get. Your not helping.

Regards
Derek

[majestique]

You could not be more correct. I'm thinking of the true story about how Gaylord "Flicker Fingers" Carter, one of the finest theatre organists in the world in his day, once went on a European organ tour. He later told of how at one historic instrument, they were all invited to play. He improvised something in the style of a "gavotte"- that must have been something! But the host musician practically pushed him off the bench with tart remark "There'll be no jazz played on this organ!"
Ah, arrogance...
Bill Miller, Phila PA

Gaylord Carter was an old friend. I can very much see him doing this! He was an extraordinary talent, a true gentleman, and a delight to spend time with. His stories were completely engrossing, and he never needed to add to them in any way since they stood on their own merits. A fascinating man, a fascinating life, and a pleasure to have known him.

Kind regards,
Shawn

[majestique]

SECONDLY: as far as I am aware only pipe organs had crescendo pedals. Therefore I assumed that only pipe organists would be visiting this thread, not Hammondists or otherwise. Thus my little poke at rock organists (I didn't think they used real pipe organs anyway) was for the benefit of other pipe organists who know where I was coming from in terms of musical taste.

To the contrary, most major brands of electronic organs also have crescendo pedals, at least among those designed for worship and concert settings.

As a "pipe organist", while I understand your personal disdain for the shallow nature of much rock music (my wife will attest that I lament the same often regarding a genre that is often playing in our house), I must point out that I have heard far more "shallow" pipe organ music than I have heard music that will stand the test of time. I would daresay that this can be said of any kind of music, or any other art form for that matter. So much of it is disposable ear candy, but once in a while a golden nugget comes out of just about every genre of the arts. And since art is an extension and expression of the artist, it follows that there will be a wide variety of styles, levels of talent, and if I may suggest, appreciation among the recipients.

An old friend had a sign hanging in her studio. "Use what talents you possess. The woods would be very silent indeed if the only birds that sang were those that sang the best."

Kind regards,
Shawn

[paulj0557]

Let's clear some things up.

FIRSTLY: I do appreciate organ music that is not specifically for a church setting. Much of the works of Bach, Reger, Widor, Vierne, Guilmant, Mendelssohn, Buxtehude, etc. were 'secular' organ works. The fact that many of the organs to play those works on are in churches is irrelevant and does not make it church music by nature. So to suggest that pipe organ music is purely liturgical is plain ignorant.

SECONDLY: as far as I am aware only pipe organs had crescendo pedals. Therefore I assumed that only pipe organists would be visiting this thread, not Hammondists or otherwise. Thus my little poke at rock organists (I didn't think they used real pipe organs anyway) was for the benefit of other pipe organists who know where I was coming from in terms of musical taste.

THIRDLY: my comments did not pertain to any kind of musicians, just certain types of music. Someone tell me of a contemporary pop composer that knows how to write three or four part counterpoint, or even knows what a fugue is and has actually used it in their music. My thoughts on rock/pop music are based on my evaluations in regard to its musical qualities of all types (structure, harmony, voice leading, development, etc). I actually think modern rock/pop music actually has some responsibility for the decline of pipe organ music, but that's another discussion.

Therefore, I APOLOGISE IF ANYONE WAS OFFENDED BY ANY COMMENTS THAT WERE MADE WHICH I SUSPECT WERE MISUNDERSTOOD. I have merely a great deal of frustration towards modern rock/pop music on a number of levels and sometimes it just comes out.

The creative process and intellect has graced many modern composers with the ability to compose on any level they desire, but it is really not necessary to write 3 and 4 part counterpoint for pop music, but they certainly could! Counterpoint is just an exercise that any skilled composer can handle. Now as to whether it is done well is another story. There are so many OTHER elements in music that matter just as much as how many players it is written for and when it comes to choosing genres of music the technical side of things takes on different forms. I mean there are things modern composers do that simply were not thought of at that point in music, but they are JUST AS VALID! Ones environment has so much to do with how one writes.

Of course there are great modern composers! My favorites- Jerrett, Ola Gjeilo, even Zappa! Personally I have been just as thrilled by modern composer OLA GJEILO'S SUNRISE as anything I have ever heard or played. It is brilliant!

Jesse Crawford was a brilliant player and even a great composer though few knew that side of him. I tell everyone to listen to ' Jesse Crawford Remembering ' that I uploaded to Youtube and just listen to his mastery of the swell. One foot on one pedal. Just listen and then tell everyone how very important 4 part counterpoint is to perfection. It's just one side of many! Listen to Errol Garner! Anyone who would shut down modern music is a fool! There has never been a moment that some great composer somewhere has not been writing. Heck, even I have composed decent stuff for 3 voices. I'm a musician, it's what we do.

[Clarion]

I suppose in regards to my opinions on music and art in general, I am of the opinion that just because the masses like something, doesn't necessarily make it of a high quality that is expected of real art. These days just about anything can be deemed art by the world.

Indeed!! :embarrassed:

I firmly believe that our musical culture, and culture in general has been in a state of rapid entropy and decay on an exponentially increasing rate since the 1950s.

The Big Bands of the forties have all disappeared, and the era of the wondrous the musicals of the era all died with "Sound of Music"; Absolutely Nothing since then: Just intolerable Andrew Lloyd Webber junk. :-P

Do kids even learn to play the piano these days? Nope! Too busy watching TV! Even Canadian Christian College, a really low end theological college in Toronto area has lowered their musical training standard pretty much to simple geetar strumm'n:

Course #1: This course is designed for students with little or no experience playing guitar. Students will learn the basics of playing guitar including the parts of the guitar, tuning, playing position and musical symbols. Chords will be introduced along with basic strumming patterns that can be used for accompaniment.

Course #2: This course will continue the studies of Introduction to Guitar 1. Prerequisite: Introduction to Guitar 1 [or by consent of the instructor]

Course #3: This course will emphasize the principles of Worship Leading as a guitarist (primarily acoustic guitar). Students will learn the role of the guitar as a worship leading instrument and study a wide variety of worship music (traditional and contemporary) and learn how to integrate different styles into their repertoire. Prerequisite: Introduction to Guitar 1 [or by consent of the instructor]

Enough to make you want to puke! :-(

[regeron]

Indeed!! :embarrassed:

I firmly believe that our musical culture, and culture in general has been in a state of rapid entropy and decay on an exponentially increasing rate since the 1950s.

The Big Bands of the forties have all disappeared, and the era of the wondrous the musicals of the era all died with "Sound of Music"; Absolutely Nothing since then: Just intolerable Andrew Lloyd Webber junk. :-P

Do kids even learn to play the piano these days? Nope! Too busy watching TV! Even Canadian Christian College, a really low end theological college in Toronto area has lowered their musical training standard pretty much to simple geetar strumm'n:

Course #1: This course is designed for students with little or no experience playing guitar. Students will learn the basics of playing guitar including the parts of the guitar, tuning, playing position and musical symbols. Chords will be introduced along with basic strumming patterns that can be used for accompaniment.

Course #2: This course will continue the studies of Introduction to Guitar 1. Prerequisite: Introduction to Guitar 1 [or by consent of the instructor]

Course #3: This course will emphasize the principles of Worship Leading as a guitarist (primarily acoustic guitar). Students will learn the role of the guitar as a worship leading instrument and study a wide variety of worship music (traditional and contemporary) and learn how to integrate different styles into their repertoire. Prerequisite: Introduction to Guitar 1 [or by consent of the instructor]

Enough to make you want to puke! :-(

While the style may be one which doesn't really give me any satisfaction, at least they are TRAINING people, even if it is at a basic level. If we are interested in quality music, regardless of genre or style, we should encourage more education wherever it is available. The more training they acquire, the more respect they stand to have for other musicians, and hopefully for other instruments and styles. Goodness knows, as you say, it's hard to find ANYONE who is taking music lessons these days, at least in the numbers that we would have seen a few decades ago.

If your training and background have left you thinking that "your instrument" is the only one worth using in a church setting, I think the appropriate words are "elitist" and "arrogant."

We would be better off to encourage their skills and introduce them to a broader range of expression. If you insult them from the get-go, you stand very little chance of them having any sympathy for you and your own tastes. In return for your disrespect, they will disrespect you.

[regeron]

I have never liked the idea of the crescendo pedal. An exception maybe for improvisation under SOME circumstances (that might still be questionable). All one needs is some well programmed pistons and some skill with a swell box. The crescendo pedal seems only to support a single monophonous sound of varying intensity. I am open to change my opinions if good reason and logic is provided, but as it stands I dislike the things.

It might be useful for a rock organist if they were ever allowed to get close enough to a real organ (which I would hope not).

I just thought I'd copy the first post in this thread, as the cause of most of this discussion, which seems to have taken at least two main directions: commenting negatively on the crescendo pedal, and putting down rock organists.

Stating that you would hope that a rock organist would NOT "ever be allowed to get close enough to a real organ" - is an insult to fellow musicians, based on the apparent fact that you don't like the music they create and perform.

The statement about the crescendo pedal seems to indicate a lack of either training or experience or both.

[douçaine]

For the sake of argument... I think I agree with Sathrandur a bit. Hold off on throwing the tomatoes for just one second. And just to be clear, I enjoy some non-classical music. Some names mentioned upthread are represented in my record collection (I'm old fashioned that way).
The reason I would avoid playing most non-classical music on the organ are twofold. First of all, even the best of non-classical music is often not idiomatic for the organ. Pink Floyd, being a great musician, only used the organ occasionally, but did it in an idiomatic manner. But guitar-strum type filler, breathless solo lines and eccentric bass lines are harder to pull off. The organ doesn't always take kindly to chugga-chugga type material (at least the pipe organ, though I have really minimal experience with Hammonds and so on); the guitar on the other hand eats it up. At best, the balance, timbre, speech or feel will be wrong on the organ; at worst, it will sound like a poor parody of real rock music. Bear in mind pulling this off takes a really superior technique, or else things fall apart quickly (I speak from real experience on this). The organ also doesn't take kindly to hyper-flexible solo lines, the kind which a blues or rock singer might sing, for the same reason the organ often doesn't render opera arias perfectly. The organ speaks in a really matter-of-fact way; Bach knew this, and gave more objective material in even his most enlightened chorale preludes than he gave to singers or violinists in even the stodgiest cantata or sonata movements. It is possible to make the organ do pretty much everything, and a skilled player can pull it off, but the effort is disproportionate to the result, and the result can be pretty absurd. Finally, bass lines as found in the most effective prog rock or blues are really difficult to play on the pedals. You try and see how it goes. But even when the notes are there, one must bear in mind that few organs are up to the challenge of rendering such bass lines articulately. This is for the same reason that Cameron's transcriptions sound much better at Trinity or Middle than on most pipe organs; the pipe organs often can't keep up with his articulations. The problem of being idiomatic is also the reason that most orchestral and piano works shouldn't be transcribed for the organ. If you try hard enough, you can accomplish the job more or less, but there are just some works that don't belong on the organ (Beethoven, most Chopin), as opposed to some works that take to the organ well (Bruckner, some Sibelius). Here's an interesting article on that subject: http://cdmnet.org/Julian/muse/m003.htm
The second reason that I'd avoid most non-classical music is that I dislike the majority of non-classical music. Pardon me for saying, but I'd say a big work by Bach is objectively a better piece than any commercially successful song written in my lifetime. If we assume all music is objectively equal, there is simply no point to preserving classical music, the organ, or anything--in with the new, no matter how banal! I can appreciate Michael Jackson as an artist, and honestly opine that he is a great musician, but when I hear a Mendelssohn sonata or a Brahms prelude, I understand that I'm in the presence of something exceeding and maybe radically other. Here's a recording of Jackson on the organ, as arranged by a good smart fellow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beaj4d_JW8c

Please debate me on my first point. I'd like to see organ technique develop in strange new directions! Let's just try not to become radical relativists along the way. There is sometimes a correct way of doing things.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, crescendo pedals will be almost useless for non-classical musicians on the organ, because non-classical music demands really specialized registrations. When playing stuff that far away from the traditional repertoire, having lots of time to prepare on the instrument is essential.

[Clarion]

While the style may be one which doesn't really give me any satisfaction, at least they are TRAINING people, even if it is at a basic level.

Really! This "college" has set the mark high!: Two semesters of strummin' a geetar, and you have earned your "BA Minister of Music"!!

What will they learn next decade for the same degree? A semester dedicated to how to work the on/off switch on a CD player? :-(

[Sathrandur]

I think that Clarion and Douçaine understand where I am coming from more readily than some others here.

Douçaine's second point very much elaborates on how I see things. Believe it or not, I actually do posess some rather modern pop type music in my collection, and even though I actually do enjoy it (at times greatly) I still only regard it as musical junk food and don't truly consider it as great music like that of Bach.

Surprisingly (to some of you), I actually don't believe all of Bach's music was overly inspired at times - he composed because that was what his job required at times.

As for Paulj0057, I never suggested counterpoint was the only mark of good music (although I don't consider it to be a merely theoretical exercise and I still suspect most modern composers have not mastered it). You haven't dealt with harmony, structure development and other factors as they pertain to rock/pop music.