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Why are lovely and amazing used organs suddenly going begging for takers?

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    #61
    I have to be honest, I have never done business with the FF. However, I have lost eBay auctions to him more than once, and not by much either. One of them was a 3 manual self-contained instrument for which he was the winning bidder at $2,500. About three weeks later he had listed it on EBay for $9500. I think it was an Ahlborn Galanti. The interesting thing is, there is feedback left on EBay for very few organs that he sells, if any. But the feedback left for other transactions such as sheet music makes up for it. I suspect the final transaction for an organ is completed off ebay and directly via PayPal so there is no track record. So when somebody receives an organ from him that is not as described, they can't resolve the issues via EBay either. What I think it all boils down to is he is using eBay as an advertising medium for his organs.

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      #62
      Originally posted by janvds View Post
      What I think it all boils down to is he is using eBay as an advertising medium for his organs.
      Nailed it!
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by janvds View Post
        The interesting thing is, there is feedback left on EBay for very few organs that he sells, if any. But the feedback left for other transactions such as sheet music makes up for it. I suspect the final transaction for an organ is completed off ebay and directly via PayPal so there is no track record. So when somebody receives an organ from him that is not as described, they can't resolve the issues via EBay either. What I think it all boils down to is he is using eBay as an advertising medium for his organs.
        Completing a transaction off eBay for an eBay item is a violation of the eBay's of terms for both buyer and seller, so I really can't work up any sympathy for a buyer who participates in such a scheme.

        I would caution everyone to exercise caution when posting unfounded accusations as facts. The legal liability is yours.
        -Admin

        Allen 965
        Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
        Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
        Hauptwerk 4.2

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          #64
          You all have made some great points regarding organ music in church. I am an organist and have been playing a Johannus 360. Our church has become so small "they" decided to down size to a Johannus Opus 10 :^(
          I am disgusted, but...... nothing I can do since the old one was costing us humongous repair bills.
          My comment to the discussion is small.....the death of organ music in church is due to the sometimes obnoxious music that is called "contemporary Christian".....none of which lends itself to being played on a real organ. As someone mentioned, the churches are beginning to believe that the oriental keyboard creates great sound. I'm sorry I just can't see it. I believe that churches would do better to create a quality music program from the instruments on up.
          Blessings to all,
          J

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            #65
            Recent post and responses regarding Craigslist Allens moved here:
            http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...akers-and-Amps

            General rule of thumb: If you're linking to Craigslist, eBay, or some other internet sales site to let others know of organs and gear for sale, the proper Forum here for that is "On the Internet".

            The reasons for this are twofold
            1. Such links are often off topic and not of interest to people not seeking to purchase an instrument.
            2. More importantly, these links are usually dead-ends within 30 days leaving any discussion of the items without reference.
            For both these reasons it's best to place these links in "On the Internet" where they can be easily found by those interested in items on the Internet, and purged at a later date when expired.

            Thanks.
            -Admin

            Allen 965
            Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
            Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
            Hauptwerk 4.2

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              #66
              I probably shouldn't resurrect this thread, but I just noticed the fellow in Florida is now parting out his ADC organs on *Bay (mostly cage cards), and all of the ADC organs have been removed from *Bay. There has been recent discussion on this Forum about virtual organs, so I wonder if he's trying to sell the consoles for those purposes after divesting himself of the contents of the organ's cage, etc.?

              Personally, if I were to do that, I'd just purchase Admin's ADC interface card, and sell the organ intact. I guess that wouldn't be as profitable, though.

              I've noticed as the trend goes on this Forum's discussions, so the trend from Florida goes. Photos from the Forum's gallery have been used several times. Hmmm.

              Michael

              P.S. Ironically, all show the same photo of an AV1 card, and are listed as coming from a MADC organ.
              Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
              • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
              • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
              • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

              Comment


                #67
                FF may be having as much difficulty selling organs as the rest of us! It remains heavily a buyer's market. Over the past couple weeks I've been in touch with a church in the area that is needing an organ upgrade, and I've talked to them about the MDS-60 I mentioned in another thread recently. It turns out the church is actually looking at three or more available organs -- the MDS-60, plus an MDS-85 that's on ebay or craigslist, and a large 3m Rodgers digital that another nearby church is trying to dispose of (after going contemporary). There isn't even a dealer involved in this, yet the organ-shopping church has at least three very attractive and quite complete organs to choose from, all of them at a small fraction of the price of a very small new organ.

                With a three-to-one ratio of organs to buyers right here, can you imagine the national picture? If I had a warehouse filled with as many organs as FF apparently has, I'd be trying to figure out a way to unload some of them too, even if it meant parting them out.

                It does seem to me that in the past year or so the balance has shifted toward VPO's as the preferred way to go for a home practice organ. To some extent, VPO's have even begun to grab a sizable segment of the big organ market, building instruments that are user-friendly enough to put into churches where the player will not be a techie.

                So, perhaps this is indeed a trend, and we will see FF and others begin to sell emptied-out console shells ready for MIDI projects, offering more such organs than they do intact ones ready to play.
                John
                ----------
                Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
                Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
                Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
                Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
                https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

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                  #68
                  Well jbird you do have a point. Some of the FF's organs move fairly quickly. Some of them are terribly overpriced- usually listed for at least double, sometimes triple their value, and are listed repeatedly. I know of several instances where he's bought an organ for say $600 and flipped it for $6,000 or more. And if one is patient, but is ready to move quickly once something becomes available, there are some real bargains out there.

                  I for one wouldn't want the overhead that goes along with having a warehouse piled full of organs somewhere. But then again, if you don't have in stock what the customer wants, they will go elsewhere.

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                    #69
                    I have too many old organs in my own little shop, though very few of them have much value. For that I'm thankful, but I may be forced soon to enlarge my stock. I'm tempted to raid my retirement fund again, and go buy both those organs that are being advertised locally, just to get them off craigslist. Not that I want to corner the market, the way FF has tried to do nationally, but I am in a difficult position, being asked by potential buyers what I think of these organs. I think both are nice, but I also know that both will need professional installation and voicing, and I'd feel much more comfortable selling them myself and making the install part of the deal, rather than trying to explain to someone why they need to pay me a couple thousand dollars to help them set it up properly.

                    I suppose if I'm going to play the role of "the" local organ expert, I'll have to pony up the funds to have good organs in stock for my potential customers. Not sure I feel good about doing this at my age, and approaching retirement.
                    John
                    ----------
                    Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
                    Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
                    Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
                    Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Funny this post got resurrected I had a conversation with a colleague last week about how it seems organs have become the abandoned puppy of church music. Playing in a church that brought an organ back after many, many, many years was an up hill battle with some of the congregation, truthfully I would say 80% had one issue or another.

                      We spent almost 5 years fundraising and building about $2000-2500 a year with a very supportive pastor that wanted an organ and was antsy to find one but luckily also agreed with me on not jumping on something that would fit because the price was right. If we were to convince the congregation we needed an instrument that would inspire not bring cringes. We were lucky enough to find an instrument about 3 hours away that we could afford. It was an Allen dealer that had the unit from an upgrade to a larger instrument, apparently there are some out there who still want to support the cause as the upgrade must have been $175-250k at least. They had tried to offer it as a used instrument for almost 2 years with no takers and finally decided to sell it as is with no installation, and parts out half the speakers (still wish we could have had a few of the HC-9s) we paid $11k and I spent nearly 2 weeks cleaning, testing, and adjusting before even bringing the console into the church. It was then almost 2 months before we fired the instrument up for its first service, during which time our music director, pastor and fundraising page got some cranky comments.

                      However the wait was worth it. Even with my rusty playing the doubters and complainers were taken aback at the sound. In 13 years of playing at the church more people joined in singing at the two services that day then I had ever heard prior. I even had one of the complaint writers come up to me and apologize for the comments, this being someone who would be happiest with the praise-ist of all praise bands, and said she realized that it was the first time she felt she was singing with and part of the music and not being sung in what she could remember.

                      I really think there has become this polarization in the world of service music especially when it comes to organs. The misnomer that contemporary hymns are not able to be played and rendered well on an organ pushes the instrument to the side as an ornamental relic of "old people". Plus the opposite extreme of the "Purist" that want classical repertoire and that organs are traditional and don't work with "contemporary" instruments, puts the real possibilities of what music can be created down limited paths.

                      The fault of this lies on both sides of the stop rail. The "praise" group that wants a "pop-esc" type sound and sees the organ as a lumbering sloth that dirges along and has no place in their music based solely on their perception of the instrument, and the organists that don't know how, or in some cases are unwilling, to break the traditional style of organ playing to be able to work with "contemporary" groups and bring the uniqueness and flexibility of the instrument.

                      I have tried very hard to reform the image the organ to our congregation and choirs. We have groups that have guitars both acoustic and electric, bass, drums, percussion and various other instruments. All playing a mix of contemporary and traditional hymns joined by both organ and piano that bring some amazing music to life. Plus our youth choirs have started to realize the depth and beauty in many older hymns. It is truly a win win.

                      I had the chance recently to sit in on a rehearsal of a local Baptist church where I was adjusting their sound system. A friend plays bass for the group and they just bought a refurbished Hammond A100 to add to their praise band. My friend egged me on to play a piece with them on piano and/or the Hammond, I agreed but instead sat down at the 20 rank 3 manual Fisk console, the director gave me a confused look and just went with it. Four minutes later the director and the keyboard player both looked at each other and said, almost simultaneously, "Why did we buy the Hammond?" They now use the Fisk at least once a service with the band and I have gotten a couple emails of "We tried xxx hymn with the organ and can't believe how well it worked." The sad part is that I have gotten feedback from other local organists that the organ doesn't belong in that "type" of music.

                      I guess the end result is as organists new, old and in between we need to be flexible in what we play, and find ways to teach others what the instrument is capable of providing. Otherwise more and more instruments will be left to rot in their chambers, or on craigslist and *Bay.

                      Erik
                      Keeping the world together with some string, a paper clip, and of course gaff(duct) tape.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                        It does seem to me that in the past year or so the balance has shifted toward VPO's as the preferred way to go for a home practice organ. To some extent, VPO's have even begun to grab a sizable segment of the big organ market, building instruments that are user-friendly enough to put into churches where the player will not be a techie.
                        Some of the organ companies are selling pre-made VPOs using their own samples. I'm not sure how many are doing it, but I do know Phoenix Organs is (I had a long conversation with Don Anderson a year ago). Their system uses jOrgan, with their samples.
                        Allen MOS 1105 (1982)
                        Allen ADC 5000 (1985) w/ MDS Expander II (drawer unit)
                        Henry Reinich Pipe 2m/29ranks (1908)

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by eaaron View Post
                          In 13 years of playing at the church more people joined in singing at the two services that day then I had ever heard prior. I even had one of the complaint writers come up to me and apologize for the comments, this being someone who would be happiest with the praise-ist of all praise bands, and said she realized that it was the first time she felt she was singing with and part of the music and not being sung in what she could remember.
                          Viscount C400 3-manual
                          8 channels + 2 reverb channels (w/ Lexicon MX200)
                          Klipsch RSX-3 speakers and Klipsch Ultra 5.1 subwoofers

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                            #73
                            Has anyone seen this? http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?47771

                            The only suitable music I can think of is Another One Bites the Dust! Sigh.

                            Michael
                            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                              Has anyone seen this? http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?47771

                              The only suitable music I can think of is Another One Bites the Dust! Sigh.

                              Michael
                              Are we not allowed to reply to the feed bot posts?
                              In any case, that price is still incredibly unrealistic. The most a 3 manual ADC ever sold for on ebay was around $5000, and the most a 3 manual MDS (next gen) ever sold for was 12K.

                              Have briefly perused this thread and the other long running one from Arie. Sorry, there might be some green shoots here and there, but the cultural tide is not going to turn back to traditional church music in this country. If we are all still around in 15 years and I am proven wrong, I will happily eat crow. As in a live one. But I'm not worried about having to fulfill that promise. It's pretty obvious that everyone involved in making organs, digital or not, knows this. Roland certainly did!

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by circa1949 View Post
                                Are we not allowed to reply to the feed bot posts?
                                Yes you can, but all posts to Feed Bot threads are subject to moderator approval before appearing on the Forum.
                                -Admin

                                Allen 965
                                Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                                Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                                Hauptwerk 4.2

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