This is why US organ manufacturers went down first

[beyerjf]

Case in point.
Kimball Xanadu manufactured in April of 1982. Largest and last organs made in Jasper IN, home of Kimball to this day. Very impressive machine visually sitting in a showroom.
A scant 10 years before they were the world's largest piano and organ manufacturer, a title they held on and off for 75 years. In 1880 they were the largest organ manufacturer in the world, 15,000 reed organs year.
After this they started buying Italian made stuff, Orla? if I am not mistaken and put their badge on it, or instructed the folks in Italy to do it for them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimball_International

They have a poor reputation around here, I remember distinctly turning my nose up at them when they were new and being sold along side of Lowrey, Gulbransen and Baldwin in shopping malls. The colors, catchy feature names "The Pro Entertainer with Magic chord" sporting lavender and lime green tabs. Really? Then I found them borderline repulsive. Today, I find myself strangely attracted to this time capsule that screams 1970's/80's. Disco anyone? It was at this time I bought a brand new Yamaha 6000 (E-70) in 1982.

Kimball was marketing to a certain group of people that Lowrey later exploited for a long time afterwards. Selling mostly entry level instruments. Which is fine, get them hooked and get them to trade up to larger and larger models
.
But this is my beef. When you get to a certain higher level, the logical dividing line for me is spinet to console, the customer is likely more sophisticated, and certainly has the wallet to back it up. Price points matter less and less. These might even be serious musicians buying your product at this level. Make it a separate platform, use materials, vendors and manufacturing techniques and designs of higher quality.
This instrument came out of the original owners home, it had been his pride and joy for 40 years. I know the tech that had been tasked to keep it going in Grand Rapids MI. It cost $18,000 new in 1982( $59,000 now adjusted for inflation), double the cost of my Yamaha 6000.

What triggered this rant? When i picked up the instrument from a home worth more than $1 million dollars, I had to remove the base pedals of course. I tested the instrument before i moved it as is my practice, everything was operational, a miracle in and of itself. Switches are mounted in the pedal unit, unlike Hammonds and others at the time, switches are in the cabinet and operated by little fingers. Much more reliable for an analog organ. There they are, the dreaded Molex connectors. 2 plugs, one with 15 circuits, one with 12. Panel mounting tabs long broken off just flopping there. Deal with it when i get home.

The pictures below tell the story. 26 individual 22 gauge SOLID wires leaving the PC board up in the organ, held into a bundle at 12" spacing by assembly tape, then wrapped in 4 miles of electrical tape after it leaves the strain relief in that nether world under the organ. Enough tail to allow the pedals to be slid about 18 inches away from the console. this style Molex connector, according to them has a connect/disconnect cycle limit of 25 times. So lets use it in this application, where the lady of the house may want to disconnect the pedals to vacuum under it or whatever. Wrong.
How about stranded wires in this application where flexing won't cause the solid wires to break, requiring a service call (after warranty of course). Nah.
Maybe use a connector with a 1000 life cycle design, where the ordinary customer can figure out how to unplug it. Might cost an additional $.32 per unit. Nope.
Then lets built the pedal unit with such inferior materials, stepping on it in normal playing, let alone the occasional toddler who may step runs the risk of destroying the contacts, which are covered with thin cardboard stapled in place. Staples for an access panel which because of their low quality contact arrangement may require constant maintenance, and parts likely not available.

Totally opposite to the design philosophy of any of the Japanese makes, which not only took over the organ market, but automobiles, electronics, heavy machinery etc.

But it does sound good for what it does best, theater tibias with some other reeds for spice.
Just don't play disco with it, even if it does have the rhythm....

[Admin]

To be fair, the fact that this organ is still playing after over 40 years, seems to argue against your premise that build quality was a factor in the decline of the home organ market. That said, I agree with your design criticisms, but also understand that marketing considerations must also be taken into consideration by manufacturers. The fact that Kimball was competing in a market where Asian manufacturers had a manufacturing cost advantage perhaps explains why corners were cut.

[beyerjf]

To remedy the 3 items i pointed out would have cost almost no money, probably pennies per instrument. Which would have been more than covered by the savings in warranty reimbursements to dealers. This particular organ is the exception, still playing after 40 years, mostly because the quality technician who maintained it. The percentage of Japanese instruments 40 years old and still playing dwarfs the US makes.
My point, that US manufacturers knew they were cutting corners, marketing and profit margins won, in this and many other industries and hoped the consumer wouldn't notice. When they did, they just pulled out.

[Admin]

I don't doubt that build quality of some US builders was subpar. I'm not sure, however, that you can conclude that the buying public at the time realized this, and chose Asian built brands instead. In those pre-Internet days, how would any mall shopper be aware of the relative reliability of brand K and brand Y? Far more likely that purchases were made on perceived value, i.e. price, than knowledge build quality. Regardless, why wouldn't I want a Yamaha at half the price of the Kimball? I also think it more likely that the domestic manufacturers pulled out of the home market because the US market had already collapsed and home organs were no longer profitable. One could test this theory by tracking and comparing sales figures of domestic and foreign manufacturers of those days.

[gtc]

22 gauge SOLID wires leaving the PC board up in the organ

Bizarre. The only application that I can think of that used solid multicore cabling was telephony.

[myorgan]

In those pre-Internet days, how would any mall shopper be aware of the relative reliability of brand K and brand Y? Far more likely that purchases were made on perceived value, i.e. price, than knowledge build quality.

Respectfully, I disagree with the premise. I'm remembering a time when "Made in Japan" was a joke to Americans in the '50s through the early '60s. That phrase was synonymous with "crap," or "crappy quality." When soldiers began experiencing Japanese made motorcycles in Vietnam and in that region, they also discovered Akai, Noritake, Honda, Yamaha (also a motorcycle), and how those items represented quality, and in the auto realm, gas savings (remember Carter's gas lines in the '70s?). My premise is that the build quality of the brands returned to America with the military from over seas.

My brother shipped a Honda 90 home from Japan, and my nephew (an executive in Atlanta) still rides it. For Americans, the newfound quality and durability of Japanese-made items made (presumably) at slave-labor prices made them a no-brainer for some Americans–especially those of limited means. I don't know if organ manufacture laborers were unionized, but I have no doubt the expense of research, development, and manufacture of American organs far exceeded that of the Japanese.

I would be remiss to not mention that it was an American company (Allen Organ) who had a R&D department in the late '60s and early '70s that pioneered digital tone sampling, then licensed it to Yamaha for their music division. With the prices Allen & eventually Rodgers charged for their digital instruments, it was only a matter of time before someone (former Roland/Rodgers, GOG, and Viscount) began developing a more cost-effective instrument with similar or more advanced quality.

Michael

[Admin]

Even if it is assumed that the US buying public had taken Japanese products off the junk list and put them on the quality list, it doesn't follow that they had taken US products and put them on the junk list.

It is not correct to infer from my comments that I'm saying Japanese products were inferior due to their lower price point. Nor should one assume that the single Kimball model being discussed was representative of the quality of all US musical product of the day.

I said that the buying public had no means of comparing the quality of US brands with Japanese ones because that information wasn't available to the extent that the Internet makes user's reviews easily accessible today. I'm saying that buying decisions were made more on price and feature points, than a non-factual perception of build quality.

[myorgan]

It is also not correct to infer from my comments that I'm saying, "...they had taken US products and put them on the junk list."

My point is that the imports were both equal or better quality and less expensive. I wasn't demoting American organs to "junk" status.

Michael

[Admin]

You started it!😄😄😄

[gtc]

I'm remembering a time when "Made in Japan" was a joke to Americans in the '50s through the early '60s

So do I, and people these days have a hard time believing it.

William Edwards Deming showed Japanese manufacturers how to produce top quality products economically via his teachings on statistical quality control, and the rest as they say is history. The irony is that back in the day he was largely ignored by American manufacturers.

[beyerjf]

In those pre-Internet days, how would any mall shopper be aware of the relative reliability of brand K and brand Y?

Here is how, old fashioned salesmanship:

When i purchased my 1982 Yamaha 6000, Glenn Grafton at Grafton Piano and Organ Souderton PA who is still very much in business made that difference between brands to me in a very clever demonstration. The back of all of the display instruments, all makes was easily seen.

He walked me to the Yamaha, took out one of the the machine screws holding the fully finished back panel on, which was threaded into embedded brass threads(nutsert) into the solid wood cabinet. He said "You see most of the US manufacturers? ugly cardboard held in place by wood screws directly into MDF. If Yamaha takes the time and effort to engineer this detail, imagine how they design the really important electronics and keyboards"

He sold me 2 top of the line organs in the next 8 years. And bought numerous Yamaha band instruments and keyboards to this day.
And was an Allen organ dealer for more than 50 years.

[Admin]

Where I differ from you is in the title of this topic: "This is why US organ market went down first." I disagree with your conjecture that build quality was the reason. While it may have been a factor, it was a minor factor compared to cost and value. It seems to me that US manufacturers quit the market because they just couldn't compete.

Just as US TV manufacturers couldn't compete with the Japanese; just as the Japanese TV manufacturers couldn't compete with Korean Samsung and LG; and just as those manufacturers are being competitively challenged by Chinese manufactured TVs from Vizio and TCL.

[myorgan]

Thank you for making my point, @Admin!

Michael

[Organkeys Jones]

The advent of inexpensive and portable keyboards like Casio had an impact on home spinet organ sales.

[gtc]

The advent of inexpensive and portable keyboards like Casio had an impact on home spinet organ sales.

It's also a case of zeitgeist. Kids in garage bands copy their heroes. If they see the B52s playing a Korg then guess what they go out and buy?

[beyerjf]

I think it is time for tucsondave and Jeff Mazza to weigh in.
A service expert and a dealer. 😀

[daryljeffreyl]

beyerjf

Lowrey Organ was once a U.S. organ company. They were founded in the United States. They were then owned by several holding companies. Kawai, a Japanese company, was the last holding company to buy them out. They were then, in my opinion, a hybrid company-a U.S.-Japanese company. Their headquarters were, I believe, still in Chicago Illinois, U.S. A. A lot of engineering, I believe, was still done in the U.S. Obviously, some engineering was also done in Japan by Kawai. Parts were sourced around the world. Final assembly was finally moved, I believe, from the U.S. to Malaysia around the year 2010.

Lowrey out survived both Rolland and Technics in the organ business. Lowrey continued to sell around the world, whereas Yamaha retreated to just the Asian Market. Why did Lowrey, an American-Japanese company out survive the other brands? In my opinion, it was due to an effective, aggressive, almost predatory, sales and marketing strategy. Lowrey got senior citizens to buy organs, and some senior citizens to continually trade-in their old organs, and their Lowrey organs, and continue to buy new Lowrey organs. Unfortunately for Kawai, the median age for Lowrey organ buyers continued to get older. Young people, by in large, were not interested in buying expensive Lowrey organs; young people bought keyboards. So in the end, old age, lack of money, the nursing home, and finally the cemetery finished off Lowrey’s organ market.

[tucsondave]

A tech's point of view.
Here's what I was told by a representative of a major organ manufacturer concerning the decline of the market in the seventies.
Early adopters of home organs were those people who grew up with theater organs in their local Fox theater. As they passed away so did the market.
Tucson at one point had seven organ dealers each with their on staff tech. I worked for the Hammond / Thomas dealer. As a side note the "Hammond Organ Studio of Tucson" had to take on Thomas around 1967 just to stay in business. Back then the manufacturers had field service reps that would travel to stores to educate techs and help with difficult issues. They also held regional training seminars.
As the market declined so did quality.
Then came microprocessors and LSI's. Thomas didn't make it to the CPU arena except for the spinet Compucon towards the end.
Kimball, Conn, Thomas, and Wurlitzer never made organs with orchestration but Baldwin, Gulbransen, and Lowrey did all with disastrous results. Lowrey MX-1 PC boards made in Nogales, Mexico, the problematic Gulbransen 380X, and the Baldwin MCO's with their faulty soldered feed through pins on 50+ pc boards in each organ. Then there was the Hammond LSI organs where cost cutting doomed them to failure.
Forum people already know about the Kimball / Conn problems.

Tech support fell to MITA where factory reps or former employees would present training seminars at our annual meeting. Now that has pretty much ended.

Not tech related but also in the 50's, 60's and early 70's there were not a lot of home entertainment options. Four television stations and the local movie theater.
Grab some pizza kids and play the organ.

[beyerjf]

Thank you for the insight. This is why I love this place and appreciate the admins who keep it going. Great ad.

[gtc]

As the market declined so did quality

On that, and further to my mention above regarding QC and Japanese ...

The final irony was that Japanese were then being invited to America to talk about their highly successful modern business practices such as ‘kaizen’ (continuous improvement) and just-in-time ordering and delivery.

Back in 1983 I was at a manufacturing business conference breakfast address given by John Sculley, not long after he had been appointed CEO of Apple Inc. He kicked off with this joke which has stayed with me*:

Three businessmen, an American, a Frenchman and a Japanese man, were to be executed by firing squad. As was the tradition, beforehand each was given a last wish.

The Frenchman said, “I want to sing La Marseillaise for the last time”. The Japanese man said, “I want to give another lecture on Japanese business practices.”

At that point the American said, “Shoot me first! I don’t want to hear one more lecture on Japanese business practices!”

... followed by much laughter and applause.

[* The reason this joke has stayed with me is that it was a great example of how opening a presentation with a joke – which is fraught with danger and not usually recommended – can work, but only if the joke is a good one.]

[daryljeffreyl]

My mother purchased a Technics digital piano, quite deluxe, in 1993. I inherited this digital piano. Technics is obviously Japanese. In the same year, I purchased an Ensoniq TS 10 keyboard. Ensoniq was a U.S. company and keyboard brand. The battery that has a five year life is still backing up the memory in the Ensoniq TS 10. Guess which instrument is still working? It is the Ensoniq TS 10. The Technics digital piano quit working in 2022. Being Japanese does not make the product superior. How well the engineering is for a particular model, the quality of parts, and the quality of final assembly determines the overall quality and reliability of a particular instrument.

Both the Technics digital piano and the Ensoniq TS 10 keyboard have microprocessors, LSIC, and VLSIC (Large Scale Integrated Circuits), (Very Large Scale Integrated Circuits). So does my 10.5 year old personal computer; assembled in Toledo, OH by Computer Discount, of American and foreign components. Therefore this technology can be very reliable for a long peod of time, if designed well.

If the personal computer, the digital piano, and the keyboard had vacuum tubes, it is very likely that I would have had to replace vacuum tubes, possibly several times, on all three pieces of electronic equipment.

[edkennedy]

Vacuum tubes can be surprisingly reliable. On my 1960's Conn organ, which is equipped with 50 vacuum tubes, almost all the tubes are the originals! The only new tubes are in the power amplifiers.

[myorgan]

Guess which instrument is still working? It is the Ensoniq TS 10. The Technics digital piano quit working in 2022.

I found the Technics digital pianos depended highly on which model you purchased. I have 4 of the Technics SX-PR604 pianos (and 1 SX-PR600 piano), and despite being used, and in some cases abused, they all still work and sound great! Who knows how long that'll last, but at least I have a good stock of spare parts.

One was destroyed when stage crew mishandling broke the plastic feet in -20˚F weather as they put it into my trailer. The piano was destroyed in my trailer on way home from Symphony, because of the broken feet. I glued and got most of it back together, and now use it as my school teaching piano–it all still works! No dust cover and I had to replace the feet with T-H-I-C-K wood, and they can't break the feet now! Time will tell.

An issue I've discovered is the ROHS compliance measures taken in products. I've had a couple of devices short out due to tin whiskers, but after cleaning them out, one or two have been restored to functional condition. I try to avoid any ROHS compliant electronics if I can.

Michael

[John Vanderlee]

Somebody mentioned TV's earlier. I used to fix TV's in the '70's, often worked on a well known RCA chassis. A common fail was sound in the picture or vice versa. That would motivate one to buy a new set, as the failure appeared bad. Interesting design flaw: A set of big voltage dropping resistors, that generated heat, was mounted right underneath the electrolytic filter capacitors, causing them to dry out and give the above failure after maybe 5 years or so. You don't think that was planned? You don't think the engineers knew about that?
John