Allen ADC-530A

[Guest]

(Looks like I posted the original post in the wrong forum. I am now copying and pasting the original post here. Sorry for the mistake.)
</p>

Somebody
wants to sell me an Allen ADC-530A organ (as a practice organ at home)
for $1500. It comes with no speakers. Just wondering:

</p>

1. Is it a good deal for its age and functions? Is it adequate for home practice?
2. Can
   it be hooked up to my 5.1 surround sound home audio system? (So that I
   don't have to purchase another 2 floor speakers that take up space) Can
   the antiphonal effect comes out of the rear speakers? How should I
   connect to the system? (Please see below for the wire panel that I saw
   at the back of the organ)
3. If hooking up an audio system is
   impossible, what kind of speakers do I need? Again, how should I
   connect the speakers? (See below)

Here is the wire panel that I was referring to:</p>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</p>

+12V</p>

Main Rly</p>

Ant Rly</p>

(Long Green Wire in -&gt;) AMP 1 (-&gt; Short Green Wire out to Main SP 1)</p>

(Long Black Wire in -&gt;) COM 1 (-&gt; Short Black Wire out to COM 1)</p>

Main SP 1 (&lt;- Short Green Wire in from AMP 1)</p>

COM 1 (&lt;- Short Black Wire in from COM 1)</p>

ANT SP 1</p>

(Long Yellow Wire in -&gt;) AMP 2 (-&gt; Short Yellow Wire out to Main SP 2)</p>

(Long Black Wire in -&gt;) COM 2 (-&gt; Short Black Wire out to COM 2)</p>

Main SP 2 (&lt;- Short Yellow Wire in from AMP 2)</p>

COM 2 (&lt;- Short Black Wire in from COM 2)</p>

ANT SP 2
</p>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- </p>

This is the first time that I have to deal with the "inside" of the organ. Any help will be much appreciated!</p>

Ed</p>p.s. I hope I posted in the right forum, but in case I didn't, modz please help move the thread to its rightful place. Thanks.

[myorgan]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



Ed,</P>


This organ <U>may</U> be considered a little priceyfor what you are getting. It was made in 1987, and will sound nice as other ADC organs would, but it was the low-cost option for those churches or individuals who didn't have a lot of money. The Gedeckt, Octave, Bassoon, and Trumpet you will find on two or more manuals--they are the same stop, just repeated on each manual. There was another post which explained this well.</P>


Here is the post. Just click on View Entire Thread to get more information about the model of organ. The organ they were discussing sold on eBay, then was re-listed just 6 months later, presumably to upgrade.</P>
<UL>
<LI>http://organforum.com/forums/post/47687.aspx</LI>
<LI>http://organforum.com/forums/post/47669.aspx(some errors in post corrected by previous post).</LI>[/list]


Regarding the wiring through a home surround sound system, you'll have to defer to the experts on that. Perhaps they'll pick up on this thread on their own.</P>


About what sort of speakers you should use? I'd suggest Allen HC-12 speakers or above. There is another post on this forum with a fellow who is trying to sell some. Occasionally, they come up on eBay or CraigsList. With other speakers, you <U>may</U> run into issues with impedence, etc.</P>


Regarding wiring the Allen speakers, just think of the wires as positive or negative. Just make sure the COM (common) is connected the same on all speakers. Otherwise, you will run into phase cancellation, and won't have much bass on the organ. Forgive me if you already know this, but phase cancellation is where one speaker is "pushing" the air while another is "pulling" the air. The net effect is for there to be no movement of the air because the two speakers will cancel each other out. This generally is a bigger problem with woofers rather than mid-range or tweeters.</P>


I realize I haven't been much help, but maybe you can get something usable from this post.</P>


Michael</P>

[Guest]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



Thanks Michael for your reply. Let's hope some experts can pick it up regarding home audio system.
</p>

Just a couple more questions here.</p>

1. What do you think the fair value for this organ should be?
2. Can I use floor speakers from a Hi-Fi system instead of Allen speakers?

[jbird604]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



Like Michael, I tend to think $1500 is a little much for that organ. It would be worth that much or more if bought from a dealer and he provided delivery and setup and some kind of warranty. But from an individual, probably not.</P>


It was a good model and I sold several of them, even to medium-size churches. Sold for around $13,000 back in the mid to late 80's.Should be a good practice organ. Philip on this forum has a 430 in his home (same organ except it has the speakers in the console). You might check his postings.</P>


You might see if you could get it for half of what they're asking, but if it looks perfect you wouldn't hurt yourself if you paid $1000. That's just my guess. You could check around and see what they've been going for on ebay or craigslist.</P>


You can use any pair of speakers you like, not just Allen models. Allen's units are especially good and can handle the power and the bass an organ puts out. Hi-fi speakers might work just fine if they are good quality and you don't play so loudly as to blow them out. There's nothing magical about the Allen speakers, but they do have some heavy duty woofers, which a lot of consumer audio speakers do not have.</P>


If you connect to the home theatre system you mentioned, you'd need to come out at line level. Fortunately, the Allen audio in this model is standard line level, so you could remove the two RCA plugs from the amplifier, put extensions on them, and plug directly into your home theatre system. As mentioned above, you don't want to play so loudly as to destroy your speakers. Especially damaging is the low bass, so be sure your speakers can handle that.</P>


No way to use the antiphonal switching in the organ to make the antiphonal sound come from your rear speakers, unless you actually remove the rear speakers from the home theatre system and connect them to the antiphonal terminals on the Allen relay. But that would ruin them for the theatre system.</P>


Good luck.</P>


John</P>
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[Guest]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



Thanks for John for your insight. I am not sure whether my home audio system can handle it. The speakers are Sony satellite speakers, and the five of them take 100W each. The sub-woofer, a separate unit, takes 100W. (For a total of 600W) Do you think it is enough?</p>

In case my audio system cannot handle it, I might have access to a pair of floor speakers (pretty tall, I believe.) As far as connection is concern, I believe the speakers have one red and one black connectors each at the back. Should I connect the red connector to the color wire at the relay, and the black connector to the black wire at the relay?</p>

When the seller was trying to show me that the organ works (he has absolutely no idea how it works, and he doesn't play either), he simply connect a pair of small speakers to the relay, with one speaker connecting to MAIN SP 1 and COM 1, and the other connecting to MAIN SP 2 and COM 2. Is this the correct way to connect the speakers? I notice that different stops will make sound at different speakers. (e.g. principal 8' will make a sound with the left speaker only) Is it normal? </p>

I didn't notice any wire connecting from the built-in amplifier to either ANT 1 or ANT 2 in the relay. Does it mean that there is no antiphonal function for this organ, even though an antiphonal stop is available?
</p>

[myorgan]

Re: Allen ADC-530A

[quote user="iquem5"] Should I connect the red connector to the color wire at the relay, and the black connector to the black wire at the relay?


When the seller was trying to show me that the organ works (he has absolutely no idea how it works, and he doesn't play either), he simply connect a pair of small speakers to the relay, with one speaker connecting to MAIN SP 1 and COM 1, and the other connecting to MAIN SP 2 and COM 2. Is this the correct way to connect the speakers? I notice that different stops will make sound at different speakers. (e.g. principal 8' will make a sound with the left speaker only) Is it normal? [/quote]</P>


The seller connected them right, but be careful about the phase cancellation I mentioned in a previous post.Yes, certain stops do speak out of different channels. On the ADC models, the channels are generally separated by manuals. One of my ADCs has 2 channels per manual (2-Swell, 2-Great shared with the Pedal, 2-Choir, and 1-Pedal shared with the Great). The other ADC has 2 channels for the Swell, and the Pedal and Great share the other4 channels.</P>


I hope to hear how to connect the antiphonal, though. I have an organ with an antiphonal relay in place, but don't know how to connect speakers to it, or if I need a separate amplifier for the antiphonal. The other 2 organs have Antiophonal prepared for (stops so marked), but I haven't had time to check to see if the relay actually exists.</P>


JBird, in a previous post you shared with another user that there was an RCA jack on an ADC someone could use for reverb. Does that exist on either of my models?</P>


I look forward to learning more through your experiences.</P>


Michael</P>

[jbird604]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



Your home theatre system is surely powerful enough. If you want to route the organ into it, give it a try. Several folks on this forum are using that kind of setup and are happy with it.Just be sure the bass is directed into the sub and not into the small speakers.</P>


Larger ADC organs, models 3100 and up, have at least 4 audio channels. Two will be for theswell and alterables, and the others will carry various stops of the other divisions.</P>


On this 530, though, the stops of both manuals and pedals share the two channels. Principal 8 is in one channel, Octave 4 in the other. Other choruses are similarly divided. The two parts of the string celeste are in separate channels, etc.</P>


You are correct about the speaker hookup. The black wire is always common or ground inside an Allen organ, and should go to the black terminal on your speaker.</P>


Antiphonal speakers are connected to the terminals marked ANT1and ANT2, with the black or common terminal connected to the common or ground on the speakers. No separate amps are used for Allen antiphonals. The relay switches the amp outputs into the mains, antiphonals, or both, depending on the positions of your tabs.</P>


There are some slider resistors on the relay board that are used for setting the level of the antiphonal speakers. They are adjusted by loosening the set screw and sliding the metal part along the wirewound resistor.</P>


Michael, if an Allen was sold with reverb it will have a reverb mixer of some sort. There is usually an RCA jack labeled "reverb out" (or else there will be a paperlabel next to the board showing which jack is intended for that purpose).</P>


If your organ was not originally equipped with reverb, there won't be a mixer. Since everthing is line level, you can use some sort of external mixer. Add a Y-adapter to each audio output on the cage, run each channel into your mixer and set the sliders to send a proper balance of stops to your reverb unit. You'll have to play the output of your reverb unit through its own amps and speakers, though. There's no practical way to feed it back into the Allen amps without the Allen-built mixer board.</P>


I'm sure the mixers are still available from Allen, if you want to do it that way. Let me know. Maybe something to do when you do the MIDI project.</P>


John</P>
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[Guest]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



The seller has just sent me 3 pictures:</p>


</p>


</p>



</p>

[Guest]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



I am overwhelmed by the insight and helpfulness of the gurus here in the forum. A big thank you to you all.
</p>

[quote user="jbird604"]</p>

Your home theatre system is surely powerful enough. If you want to route the organ into it, give it a try. Several folks on this forum are using that kind of setup and are happy with it.Just be sure the bass is directed into the sub and not into the small speakers.</p>


[/quote]
</p><ul>[*]How do I connect the organ to the amplifier of my home audio system? There are 4 wires (Green - MAIN SP 1, Black - COM 1, Yellow - MAIN SP 2, Black - COM 2), but there are only two RCA inputs on my home audio's amplifier (Red and White).[*]How do I connect the bass directly to sub-woofer? There is no "bass" wire that comes out of the organ's built-in amplifier.[/list][quote user="jbird604"]

Antiphonal speakers are connected to the terminals marked ANT1and ANT2, with the black or common terminal connected to the common or ground on the speakers. No separate amps are used for Allen antiphonals. The relay switches the amp outputs into the mains, antiphonals, or both, depending on the positions of your tabs.</p>


There are some slider resistors on the relay board that are used for setting the level of the antiphonal speakers. They are adjusted by loosening the set screw and sliding the metal part along the wirewound resistor.</p>

[/quote]
</p><ul>[*]Again, there is no "antiphonal" wire that comes out of the organ's built-in amplifier.[*]ANT 1 and ANT 2 has no wires attached to. Does it mean that the antiphonal function is inactive?[*]On the relay, there is no COMs associated with ANT 1 and ANT 2. How should I connect to the antiphonal speakers?[/list]

[jbird604]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



Glad you posted the pictures. Looks very clean and nice. I see that it has the user settable combination action -- note the pair of rechargeable batteries on the little board near the bottom of the rear panel. Even though the tabs don't move by electromagnets, you can set up your own combinations on the preset pistons by following the instructions in the book very carefully! It's not as intuitive as a moving tab or even lighted action, but it does work once you get the hang of it.</P>


BTW, you should watch those batteries closely. If they even look crusty around the ends like they're about to leak, have them replaced immediately. They will destroy that board and it costs hundreds of dollars! Best to have them re-located to the floor of the organ. An Allen tech will know how to do this.</P>


As to your questions -- (1) If you are going to connect to your home theatre system, you will NOT be using the organ's built-in amps at all.You will not be connecting any speakers directly to the organ at all. To go into your home stereo, unplug the two RCA cables that are currently connected to the amplifier in the floor of the organ. Then geta stereo pair ofRCA extension cables (females on one end, males on the other), plug each of the gray RCA plugs into the female end of the extender,andconnect the other end (male)into the aux input of your stereo amp. Right and left (red and white) are irrelevant in this case.</P>


The organ's internal amp (the big black unit labeled "ADC Amplfier") can then be unplugged from the AC if you wish to save a little power and heat. Just pull the AC cord out of the back of it.</P>


I assume that your home theatre amplifier with automatically route the bass frequencies into your subwoofer. That is a function of the theatre system. There is no separate bass output on the organ, so there's no way to connect a subwoofer directly to the organ. Connect the subwoofer to your theatre system, according to the labels and instructions on the unit.</P>


PICTURE SPEAKS VOLUMES: By the picture I see that you do NOT have antiphonal relays installed. You only have the terminal strip which is "prepared" for antiphonal relays. So you couldn't have separate antiphonal speakers even if you wanted them unless you purchase and have installed the actual relay unit.</P>


However, (2) if you DO wish touse the internal amps of the organ, you must leave the RCA cables plugged into the amps. Then you'll connect your main speakers (possibly the large floor-standing hi-fi speakers you mentioned) to the MAIN 1 and MAIN 2 terminals on therelay strip(with the black or common wire of each speaker going to the COMMON terminal of the relay -- it doesn't matter which one, whichever is nearest the Main terminal. </P>


So, take your pick. Either run it into your home theatre system using the RCA extension cables, or hook up some good speakers directly to the Main terminals in the floor.</P>


I'd try the home theatre hook up first, since you've already got everything you need except the RCA extension cables.</P>


John</P>
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[Guest]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



There is one more picture from the seller:</P>


</P>

[Guest]

Re: Allen ADC-530A

[quote user="jbird604"]


Glad you posted the pictures. Looks very clean and nice. I see that it has the user settable combination action -- note the pair of rechargeable batteries on the little board near the bottom of the rear panel. Even though the tabs don't move by electromagnets, you can set up your own combinations on the preset pistons by following the instructions in the book very carefully! It's not as intuitive as a moving tab or even lighted action, but it does work once you get the hang of it.</P>


[/quote]</P>


There are 7 combination presets, and there is a "Set" button on left and "0" on right. I believe one can set the presets without having to play around the combination settings at the back of the organ.</P>


And does anyone know if I can plug in my headphones for this organ? (I suppose if I use my home audio system, I can simply plug the headphones to the amplifier. I am asking this just in case I ended up installing a pair of speakers instead.)</P>


Thanks for being so patient with me. Really appreciate it.</P>

[cpv]

Re: Allen ADC-530A

This string is very interesting to me as well. I would really like to run line level outputs from a mixer to my home audio, instead of individual Allen S-100 amps. My Onkyo is rated 100W per channel min for a 7.1 speaker system. Jbird, your information is very helpful. My Allen'solder but may have similar components...

[circa1949]

Re: Allen ADC-530A

<ul>[*]http://organforum.com/forums/post/47687.aspx[*]http://organforum.com/forums/post/47669.aspx(some errors in post corrected by previous post).[/list]

can I ask what errors are specifically bothersome to you!? When I don't know for sure what I'm talking about, I try to be deliberately vague! The only glaringly incorrect thing (versus vague) is indirectly implying that the ADC-720 might have had a XP daughterboard (not an AV alterable voice board!) as the larger 4 digit MADC organs do, though possibly "without all the microchips installed" since obviously it doesn't have as many true "ranks" as a 4 digit series MADC organ (e.g., ADC-2160). This was based on an active Allen tech telling me he thought that some 3 digit ADC models did have it. As it happens we have cleared this up in a later thread to the ones above with Phil's help...apparently his ADC-530 does only have 1 board. (TG type) with 2 channels out. I now think that tech. was just forgetful about which series of [M]ADC models he was discussing with me.</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

[circa1949]

Re: Allen ADC-530A



btw, to the original poster, whether you will be happy with 100wpc depends on the sensitivity of your speakers, but, generally, I think it will be loud enough</p>

In - general - I think a highish quality external amp (and speakers for that matter) will sound better in a home setting than the Allen audio system, which, frankly, is designed with filling an auditorium/church space with as much sound as possible in mind. I used Tannoy coaxial speakers with my former ADC-1140. (although I had a 5 channel config, with 2 other speakers and 1 internal channel for the great rohrflote/octave/Mixture IV channel, which seemed the best to throw on to the slightly woolly sounding internal speakers that worked - the vagueness of those drivers tempered the Mixture IV, which sounded very shrill on the Tannoys. (The other internal channel had issues so I didn't use it at all). The only problem with this approach - and I believe Clarion has alluded to this at some point - is the higher resolution exposes the 8 bit digital aliasing noise of the technology. YMMV. OTOH the MADC3 fake principal 8 chiff "deserved" being on the HQ Tannoys, as it sounded rather lovely on some notes.
</p>

I hope they have big woofers for the bass notes, or that you have a subwoofer</p>

and to myorgan...I wasn't really upset hahaha...when do we get to hear a sample of your ADC-4300? or how about some pics?

</p>