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  • Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics

    The main thing about the new $55K (2 manual, 44 stop) Quantum instrument is improved digital processing. I heard one last week in the show room and found that the pipe sound emulation is a definite improvement over the previous Renaissance model. But I don't think anyone will ever duplicate Notre Dame in your living room. Headphones might help - didn't get to try that. The long reverb still sounds faked to me.

  • #2
    Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics

    thanks for the info Paul!

    I will wait to have Notre Dame duplicated in my living room. (laughing).

    This new technology of sampled accoustics is such a revolutionary idea.... I guess just like the original digital organs the first time they did it the results were nice..but not spectacular but I am guessing over the next few years Allen & Rodgers, Phoenix will incorporate this more and more.

    Imagine what digital organs will sound like in 10 years! I think Allen is onto something here, but will take some tweaking to get it right.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



      Imagine what digital organs will sound like in 10 years! </p>

      </p>

      They will all be Haupwerk based.</p>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics

        I'm sure sampled acoustics sounds good when an organ is played in amore or less acousticallydead space like anorgan showroom or a carpeted living room, but what if any benefitwould it bein anon-deadspace like most churches?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



          Count me as a tentative skeptic on this. I haven't been impressed by any Acoustic Portrait setups so far, but perhaps it is being done more artfully by some installers or dealers. I can't yet tell that it's anything that different from the digital reverbs that have been around for severalyears, and are getting better and better as processing power and memory become cheaper and faster.</P>


          Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of digital reverb.Itvery often makes quite a dramatic improvement in an organ installed in a dry setting, and can even improve a setting that is moderately live but still a little dry for organ.</P>


          To my ear, the "convolution" processors do not yet sound any better than the Alesis "Concert Hall" settings on the MIDI-Verb4. The Alesis has the advantage that one can tweak numerous parameters to get it just right for the room. The "sampled acoustics" are what they are, take it or leave it.</P>


          Perhaps, as was suggested, when this concept is more mature it will surpass what can be done with the generic reverb units. We'll see.</P>


          John</P>
          <P mce_keep="true"></P>
          John
          ----------
          *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics

            [quote user="jbird604"]


            Count me as a tentative skeptic on this. I haven't been impressed by any Acoustic Portrait setups so far, but perhaps it is being done more artfully by some installers or dealers. I can't yet tell that it's anything that different from the digital reverbs that have been around for severalyears, and are getting better and better as processing power and memory become cheaper and faster.</P>


            Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of digital reverb.Itvery often makes quite a dramatic improvement in an organ installed in a dry setting, and can even improve a setting that is moderately live but still a little dry for organ.</P>


            To my ear, the "convolution" processors do not yet sound any better than the Alesis "Concert Hall" settings on the MIDI-Verb4. The Alesis has the advantage that one can tweak numerous parameters to get it just right for the room. The "sampled acoustics" are what they are, take it or leave it.</P>


            Perhaps, as was suggested, when this concept is more mature it will surpass what can be done with the generic reverb units. We'll see.</P>


            John</P>
            <P mce_keep="true">[/quote]</P>
            <P mce_keep="true">I agree that I haven't noticed a big difference in Acoustic Portrait over other types of reverb. One reason MIGHT BE that Allen's system, which was developed by a company called Lake ( I believe Dolby bought them), is real-time.</P>
            <P mce_keep="true">Convolution reverb many times is a non-real time process that takes times for a computer to crunch and then produce a result you can hear applied to the original audio signal. Maybe the real-time process loses some effectiveness in order to be able to produce results while someone is playing.</P>
            <P mce_keep="true">Bill</P>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



              Real-time convolution reverb is extremelyprocessing-intensive, hence I imagine that Allen's system applies convolutionat the audio output channel level, as opposed to convolving each rank or each pipe separately. This is not going to provide the most realistic result, as in the real worldeach individual rank and indeed eachpipeinteracts independently and differentlywiththe room acoustics. A more realistic resultcan be obtained by convolving each rank or ideally each pipe individually, but the processing power to do this in real time is currently cost-prohibitive. Ascomputing price/performance continues to improve, real-time convolution reverb will improve as well. </P>


              Hauptwerk is soon going tohave a real-time convolver plug-in, and will also benefit from processing power improvements. In fact PC processingprice/performancewill almost certainlycontinue to improve faster than price/performance of purpose-built audio processing hardware, as it has in the past, so I suspect the Allens etc. of the world will have a hard time keeping up.</P>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



                Paul,</p>

                You are correct that the new Allen Quantum organs sound a bit better. Each new generation from Allen (and likely all their competitors as well) are improved as processing power, memory increases, and improved processing of samples and the knowledge base gets larger. </p>

                However, you will find Allen, Rodgers, Johannus, those three expecially are big on catch phrases, Trademark names etc.</p>

                Acoustic Portrait is just a plug-in sampled reverb system, that Allen is buying from someone else. Convolusion is not new, and may not even be any better. But because Allen has it, it has got to be better. On a Quantum CD I have, it doesn't sound any better than most other E_Org reverbs. The long delay one to me just sounded wierd. Of all the electronic reverbs I have heard, I think Rodgers/Roland RSS is the best. The RSS can no longer be had, as Roland has pulled it from the marketplace. It is now only found in Rodgers organs.</p>

                Someone else mentioned about what digi-organs will sound like in 10 years. My guess is not much better than today. Why you say? Well unless there is a massive turn around in sales, there isn't much money for R &amp; D. In fact profits at most companies are non-existent. What you may see, is more and more the approach of Hauptwerk, using the PC as the tone-generator. That way at least companies won't have to invest massively in hardware development. Right now, pretty much every digi organ out there built by the major companies, has technology in it that is basically from the late 90s. The rest is just adding to the feature list, and incremental improvements.</p>

                Having seen the trend in organ sales the last few years, my guess is that in less than 10 years, a number of vendors will be gone, and others will be smaller.</p>

                AV</p>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



                  In my view, the limiting factor in achieving absolute realism in digital organs will not much longerbe the realisticgeneration of individual pipe tones. Perhaps it already isn't-- the top sampled instruments and Hauptwerk havealready reached the point where it is very difficult to distinguish <U>individual</U> notes played in a good live acousticfrom their real counterparts. The "last frontier" is the ensemble problems (harshness, thinness, lack of build-up )caused by theintermodulation distortion, mixing distortion and signal compressionthat inevitably arise when the sounds ofindividual pipes are mixed electronically before they reach the amplifiers andloudspeakers. As we all know, the more stops are drawn on any digital organ the lesslike the real thing it sounds, even if the individual sounds are of "discrete" origin. The problems withmixingthe sounds of individual pipesin the electronic domainare well describedin this article</P>


                  http://www.pykett.org.uk/EndOfPipeOrgan.htm</P>


                  There is a solution -- lotsof discrete high-qualityaudio channels, as in dozens or preferably hundreds -- so that most or all of the mixing of individual pipe sounds occurs inreal space, rather thanelectronically. But this is very expensive to achieveand probably will remain so,since advances in price/performance of high-grade audioamplifiers and loudspeakers occur at a snails' pace, compared to digital processing hardware. (The author of the above articlemaintains, with some justification, that loudspeaker quality has actually declined in recent years.) I envisionthat in the near future amuch larger portion of the total cost of top-tier digital organ installations will be invested inthe amplifiers and speakers, relative to the tone generationand console control electronics. This is already happening in the Hauptwerk world.</P>
                  <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                  <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                  <P mce_keep="true"></P>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



                    Inprofessional studios, Lexicon is the last word in digital reverberation. Has this company ever been approached to develop a better reverberation unit for digital organs? </P>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics

                      Yes! Lexicon seems to be the last word in digital effects, but at a price. List price for the 960L is about $17,399,00, PCM 91, about $3,129, MPX1, about $1,129, and their baby's from $299 (MX200), $824 (MX400XL).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



                        Hi,</p>

                        Lexicon IS the LAST word when it comes to digital reverb enhancement. However the system they have is not really designed with digital organs in mind. The system I am referring to is called LARES (Lexicon Acoustic Reverberation Enhancement System). It is hugely expensive, and it is a separate system. There is an digi-organ setup in England that has a system in the room, but is not part of the organ. It supposedly sounds fantastic. It is owned by designer/voicer Graham Blythe, and the organ is a Musicom based Veritas organ.</p>

                        The LARES system is said to cost over $100,000.</p>

                        Not something your average digi organ buyer would want to purchase.</p>

                        Arie V
                        </p>


                        </p>

                        </p>

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics

                          What about TC Electronic? As I understand it even their cheap stuff keeps pace with Lexicon's median products. At the premium these electronic organs are going for, what's $1500 for a TC M3000?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



                            Howdy,</p>

                            I am looking at the schematics for Johannus organ's reverb unit right now, and it specifically lists "Alesis" brand reverb for every model J-nus. </p>

                            Phoenix Organs uses different Lexicon units according to the needs of the specific organ being built. Some organs have can even have two Lexicon units. The basic controls for the units can be accessed though the LCD control window on the console, but the Lexicon units can also be adjusted using the units own controls. This allows for an infinite range of reverb effects as desired or needed. Phoenix Organ engineers and Lexicon engineers are in communication, and so Lexicon does know what Phoenix wants and has done some custom work for Phoenix. Lexicon is considered the best by the vast majority of sound professionals. </p>

                            (There is no comparison between the Alesis sound and the Lexicon sound... my .02 worth.)
                            </p>

                            As for organ reverb of any sort, in my opinion, it should be used <u>very</u> sparingly, if at all in a church setting. There is no way it will not sound fake when everything else in the room is sounding from the ambient acoustics. In this situation, the most that should be used is just enough to take the dry edge off the dry acoustics... 1/4 to 1/2 second, maximum reverb time.</p>

                            However, I think reverb is useful, and if set up right, very pleasant to use in a home or studio installed organ. Good units can add appropriate sounding acoustics (and delays with added speakers) and give an very close representation of good building acoustics. Phoenix now has a very nice surround sound system just for home or studio installations.</p>

                            [OFF-TOPIC... sorry, it's been awhile since I posted anything anywhere.]
                            I keep hearing talk that there is some sort of terrible recession in organ sales. Let me say, that this must be a regional problem because in the Southeast US the market is [Y]hot[&lt;:o)] for high-end organs and pipe organs alike! The economy in my area is sizzling and has been for a decade or more! Take a look at some of the pipe organ builder sites in the S.E. and see the backlog of work they have. I have a church right now that I put a small organ in last spring that has been waiting (will be waiting) a very long time just to get a <span style="font-style: italic;">very</span> small non-speaking facade... no delivery date in sight. Digital organs are enjoying the same economy. [:D]I'm a happy camper.
                            </p>

                            [:)]Dave.</p>

                            </p>


                            </p>
                            http://phoenixorganssouth.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Allen Acoustic Portrait™ - Actual Sampled Acoustics



                              However, you will find Allen, Rodgers, Johannus, those three expecially are big on catch phrases, Trademark names etc</P>


                              Ugh. And a real annoyance they are too. You go on the Allen organ website and every bloody fancy name for a bit of technology has a poncy logo to go with it all lined up in a row. Please bin them just tell us it's got 'sampling', 'reverb and 'a speaker system', and cut out the pretentious PR ********.</P>

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