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  • Rick Powers
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Once again, many thanks to you, John. And Tom, I appreciate your information.</P>


    I hope all this is useful to others as well.</P>


    Rick</P>

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  • twnelson
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    John, Rick,</p>

    Those models of Eminence speakers, as well as most of their other drivers, are readily available at Madisound:
    </p>

    http://www.madisound.com/manufacturers/eminence/</p>

    Some are special order, but they can get almost anything in my experience.</p>

    -- Tom</p>

    </p>

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Rick,</P>


    The woofer you reference is a fine speaker, and I've used it in HC-12 cabinets and in subwoofers, such as the big Rodgers cabinets with dual 15" drivers.</P>


    It has a rubber surround, so it should be suitable for either sealed or vented boxes, as the description suggests. But I haven't used one in a HC-14 or 15, so I can't say for sure how it will work in that particularvented box. It does work well in the Rodgers subs, which are vented.</P>


    What I normally use in HC-14/15 cabinets is an Eminence speaker, usually the Gamma or Delta 15. However, they are not in the Parts-Express catalog, and I'm not sure where you'd buy them. I get them from a supply house that onlysells todealers and techs, for about the same price you see in the Parts-Express ad above.</P>


    So, I'd say you could try that one and see how it sounds. It might be just right. But I'd try one before replacing them all. Actually, you may never need to replace the woofers in an HC-14 or 15 because the textile surround is far more durable than foam.</P>


    Using the "textbook" charts, it appears that the crossover from the woofer to the midrange in an HC-14/15 is about 500 Hz. However, there are some extra components in the mid-range section, so I'm not sure what kind of modification Allen's engineers were making to the actual operating band of the mid-range. I'm guessing the extra components pad down the output of the midrange a bit to match the woofer and tweeter.</P>


    The crossver between mid-range and tweeter looks like about 5000 Hz, using standard calculations.</P>


    The HC-12 crossover is even stranger, though I'm sure they had their reasons, and they probably designed it after extensive listening and lab tests. It appears to roll off the woofer above about 250 Hz, which makes pretty good sense, considering that it's a foam-surround and has to work down to 16 Hz on 32' stops. But oddly, the mid-range seems to have a bandwith of onlyabout 600 Hz - 1000 Hz, though it uses only a very gentle 6 dB per octave roll-off above and below that band. That would tend to make it quite active even down to about 300 Hz and up to at least 2000 Hz, maybe higher.</P>


    One might guess that there is a response dip in the 2000 - 4000 Hz range, and that may be true. But Allen probably knew that their organs sounded better like that.</P>


    My guess is that the HC-12 was designed that way to help balance the fairly efficient output of the midrange with the fairly in-effecient output of a foam woofer in a sealed box.</P>


    Whatever the reasons behind the odd crossovers, Allen always had pretty good-sounding speakers.</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

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  • Rick Powers
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Regarding ADC speakers:</P>


    As previously noted, I have replaced the mid-range speakers in my HC-14s with Pioneer B11EC80-02F 5-1/4" Cup Midranges from Parts-Express, as Johnsuggests; with apparent good result.</P>


    My 15" woofers seem to be in good condition - no obvious faults, but just for future reference I did go to the Parts-Express web site where I found a plethora of 15" woofers for sale. Using their "speaker selection wizard",I came up with the <FONT class=text12bold-D61920>Dayton DC380-8 15" Classic Woofer</FONT>[$65] as the logical replacement. Is this correct?</P>


    Also, it occurs to me that the tweeters are also 24 years old, and though they show no outward signs of deterioration, what are the chances they are tweeting less than optimally? Also, tweeter design and engineering may have progressed over the years. If the cost of the replacements is $20 or so, does it make sense to replace them?</P>


    Once again, there are a bunch of 8-ohm tweeters available, and I couldn't find a guide to help me. If anyone can help with the particular tweeter that best replaces the original ones installed in the HC-14s, I will be most appreciative.</P>


    Finally, it would be most helpful to know what the nominal crossover frequencies are for the HC-14s; and I don't.</P>


    Thanks in advance,</P>


    Rick</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    That's what Allenactually recommended in the past -- replacing both 4 ohm units with a single 8 ohm. (And leaving a dummy speaker in the hole to keep the cabinet air-tight.) I think now, though, that they simply don't recommend repairing the HC-12 at all, but want to sell you a replacement baffle that converts it to a 14, more or less.</P>


    What you diddoes work electrically, since the crossover was designed for 8 ohms. But the single mid-range speaker might have to work pretty hard, as the crossover in the HC-12 has the midrange crossing over from the woofer at about an octave lower than it does in the HC-14. That is the reasoning behind the doubled-up midranges, I suppose.</P>


    So, if you can see some way to whittle away a bit of the plastic and get them both in there, I'd recommend it, especially if you're going to play the organ at high levels. Another advantage to using both midranges is that the effective impedance at those frequencies becomes 16 ohms, which flattens out the mid-range response somewhat and -- because the efficiency of the cabinet is increased -- saves a bit of amplifier power for the low bass.</P>


    Glad you're re-doing the foam-surround woofer. I don't generally have them re-built, as 15" woofers don't cost a lot from Parts-Expressor other suppliers. But if yours has only just now developed rot, it probably hasn't harmed the coil yet and re-foaming it should be very successful.</P>


    Good luck!</P>


    John</P>

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  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    I've finished replacing the midrange speakers. It went without a hitch on the HC-14 cabinets, I ran into a few issues with the HC-12 cabinet. The first issue is that the Pioneer midranges won't fit side-by-side in the holes made for the Peerless speakers. I ended up putting in one Pioneer, and bypassing the second speaker, essentially replacing 2 4 ohm speakers with a single 8 ohn speaker. I left a Peerless speaker in the cabinet, not attached to anything, just to plug the hole.</p>

    I also found that the foam surround on the HC-12's woofer was in really terrible condition. A moderately large section disintegrated when I brushed against it with my hand. I pulled the woofer out of the cabinet, and I'll pick up a new surround Saturday. I'm expecting much better bass response afterwards.</p>

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  • Rick Powers
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Dan,</P>


    After you install your seven replacement mid-ranges, expect to have to re-balance your mini-pots. </P>


    Also, since the screw holes are closer to the edge of the opening than the original Allen bolts, be sure that whoever actually installs the new speakers pre-drills the new screw holes to avoid cracking/splitting problems.</P>


    Rick</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    It would make sense that the new undamaged speakers would be louder than the old ones. Since the purpose of a speaker is to move air, if the air can escape from the high-pressure side of the cone directly to the low-pressure side, you won't hear much. It's much the same concept as winglets on the wingtips of newer airliners.</p>

    My 7 midranges are in route from KY at the moment, scheduled to arrive on Wednesday. Good to hear that they are relatively painless to install.</p>

    - Dan</p>

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  • Rick Powers
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    I have received and installed the two Pioneer B11EC80-02F midrange speakersordered from Parts Express into my HC-14s.</P>


    The installation was quick and easy. No chamfering necessary, but the mounting holes did not match up, so four wood screws were required for each. I connected the reddish wire to + and the black wire to -.[The old speakers were not marked, but black seems to be the common ground.]</P>


    Upon examination, one of my replaced speakers not only had radial cracks but 5 circumferential ones as well, joining 2 or moreradial ones. Fully 40% of the speaker had become detached from its surround. The other one had slightly fewer radial cracks, andno circumferential ones.</P>


    The new speakersproduceexcellent sound.But are my ears playing tricks or are they actually louder than the old - particularly the one with the circumferential cracks?</P>


    Thanks again for the specific information that prompted me to make these repairs.</P>


    Rick</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Rick,</P>


    RE the antiphonal/main on/off controls on the 2110..... The tabs are always pre-installed, and the terminal strip in the floor of the console has the wires already in place, prepared for installing the actual relays. If you can get hold of one of these "Univerel" units it will fit exactly where the present terminal strip is and all you have to do is transfer the wires directly from one to the other in the exact order. There may be a couple of jumpers that have to be removed when relays are installed. If so, there is probably a sticker with that noted on it near the strip.</P>


    Getting a Univerel .... sometimes they show up on ebay when somebody parts out an Allen from the 80's or 90's. They can of course be bought from an Allen tech or dealer, but they are quite pricey. Even the "dealer" price is too high IMHO for a little circuit board with a couple of $5 relays, two resistors,and a terminal strip. But you might just keep your eyes open for one.</P>


    Of course, you'd need an extra pair of speakers to connect to the antiphonal terminals, but that's all. Since the 2110 has all the divisions mixed down to only two channels, you cannot send, for instance, the Swell to the antiphonal while the Great remains in the front. So I think the antiphonals have limited usefulness anyway. </P>


    John</P>

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  • Rick Powers
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Dan,</P>


    I am glad you are making good progress, and have found that having the speakers speak indirectly into the space is the way to go.</P>


    You have said that the budget is tight, but if you can find a few dollars to purchase a Harrison Labs DSP Ambient Signal Processor, based on my experience with it, I would strongly recommend you do so.One unit will work with two amplifier sections. If you connect it [easy to do] to channels 4 and 5, youcould thenhave the Great spacially separated from the Swell. Or you could try it with channels 1 and 2. Experiment with it. If you like what you hear, you would need 2 additionalunits to do the complete organ, but you would then have endless possibilities and IMHO a remarkably improved sound.[I have mine set as it came from Harrison - "Warm Cathedral", with the mix control at about 50%.]</P>


    Have you solved your channel 2 problem?</P>


    Rick</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

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  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    John,</p>

    Thank you much for the information. Armed with your posts and a prior post I found by you under the "ALLENS FOR SALE" thread, I spend about 2.5 hours at church last night carefully tweaking the pots. I ended up with a much better sound that I'd had, and although it initially sounds a bit too loud (our sound guy will likely freak out when he hears it), the music minister stopped by and we found that the piano and organ blend very well, with very similar volume when playing forte on the piano, and 8' + 4' + 2' diapason chorus on the organ. The 4' is now a bit softer than the 8', 2' a bit softer than that. The diapason chorus has a completely different character than it did before, a real improvement IMO.</p>

    We will be having piano, organ and the brass ensemble play on Sunday morning, so that should give me a good chance to see how accurately I've set the levels.</p>

    Initially I had set up all 6 speakers in a temporary location on the floor of the front of the sanctuary, with all 6 speakers flat against the wall. I found that by turning the speakers 45* so that the sound reflected off the side walls of the chancel, I was able to get a much better sound - it was really remarkable how much of a difference it made, both for me at the console, and throughout the sanctuary. We willdefinitelykeep this in mind when mounting the speakers morepermanently.</p>

    I'll likely end up ordering a full set of those Pioneer midranges. Thanks so much for sharing that information!</p>

    - Dan</p>

    Leave a comment:


  • Rick Powers
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    John,</P>


    Once again you have been most helpful! Using the information you supplied to Dan, I have just ordered 2 replacement mid-range speakers for my HC-14s from Parts-Express. [I was very impressed with their web site.]Many thanks.</P>


    I'm curious; just how cracked do these speakers have to be to cause an audible degradation of sound? Mine have 14-15 cracks reasonable evenly spaced. I decided to order the replacements based on how the speakers looked and the minimal expense involved, not on their sound.</P>


    I did contact Allen Service and a helpful fellow named Corey Fridinger informed me that my ADC-2110was a "standard model" manufactured in October of 1986. No add-ons. Also apparently no record of where it was initially installed; and dedicated to a Mr. "Ben Geltner", "A Man for All Mankind". Commemorative placque still in place - but I would be willing to send it back if I knew,where to send it.</P>


    The General section of the stop rail has "Main Organ Off" and "Antiphonal Organ On" along with four blank tabs.The "Main Organ Off" does not, in fact, turn the Main Organ off. I note some [empty] terminals where the speakers connect marked "relay". Is this relay already in the console or is it an add-on? The tabs are there, so, besides speakers, what else do I need [and where do I get it] to have a functioning antiphonal? </P>


    I did not have a "cage chart", but I was able to successfully adjust the mini-pots byfirst carefully writing down the current positions and then using what those settings were to try to understand what the previous "voicer" was trying to do. In this case, using a clock analogy with 12-o'clock being mid-range,the trebles were all 4 or 5, the gains were 2, except for channel 1 [Great Principal, etc.]being 5, and the rest wereclose to 12.</P>


    Then, one channel at a time, I turned the gain all the way down and wrote down which voices were barely audible. This gave me my "chart" of which voices were on which channel. As you suspected, 1 and 4 were Great/Pedal, 2 and 3 were Swell, and 5 and 6 were the two Alterables. [The Violas II wasboth 2 and 3.]</P>


    Finally, using your suggestions, I made some minor adjustments. Only a few slight changes.</P>


    As you may have noted from other posts, I have installed a Harrison Labs DSP Ambience Processor [just before the amplifier inputs] and it is terrific. I am expecting delivery of their Traveling Wave Generator any day now, with expectations that it will provide even more realism.</P>


    While not as big or fancy as some, this ADC-2110 is a "real" organ. It looks like an organ, it functions like an organ, it plays like an organ and it sounds like an organ. I am really enjoying it. [But, as Tom Hazleton would say, it is really just a big computer.]</P>


    Thanks again,</P>


    Rick</P>

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  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Dan,</P>


    Re-reading my post, I see a couple of things that might be confusing. First, by "12:00" position of the BTMG pots, I mean half-way through their rotation range. The slot may not be pointing upward, but swing the pot through its entire range a few times to clean it, then stop at the half-way point. But use great caution when rotating these things as they are a little fragile. Don't put much pressure on them with your screwdriver.</P>


    Also, to be clear about the midranges.... although the HC-12 used the 4-ohm version of the Peerless mid, you can safely subsitute the samePioneer8-ohm units that I recommended for the HC-14 cabinets. Go ahead and put two of them in there, in series, just as Allen did with the 4-ohm units. The slight effect on crossover points is negligible, and in my opinion even desirable, as it gives the sound of theold HC-12 cabinet just bit more body than it came with!</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

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  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Allen ADC-5000 set-up questions



    Dan,</P>


    I sent you a PM about the midrange speakers. Even before reading your post here I suggested that one of the cabinets may be an HC-12, which does indeed have two midranges, and you are correct that it goes on the channel with the 32' stops....... In order to share the information with the entire group, I'm going to copy and paste the message I sent privately to you, and here it is --------&gt;</P>


    The Pioneer unit is called a 5.25 inch mid-range, but the back-chamber is only a bit over 4" in diameter, and fits "almost" perfectly into the opening cut in the HC-14 or HC-15 baffle for the Peerless unit. You will need to do a little bit of chamfering of the opening. It only takes a couple of minutes with a rasp or dremel tool.</P>


    The Pioneer model number is .. B11EC80-02F.It's available from Parts-Express.com for $18.58 plus shipping. Since you'll be ordering 7 of them you actually get the discounted price of $16.53.</P>


    If your ADC-5000 has the HC-12 speaker cabinet on the 32' pedal channel, you will need two mid-ranges for that cabinet. Note that the original Peerless mid-range used in the HC-12 was actually a 4-ohm speaker, which Allen wired in series pairs to make an 8 ohm load. Peerless no longer sells the 4-ohm version, but there is no harm in replacing them with these 8-ohm Pioneers. The sound is probably actually enhanced a bit because the effect on the crossover network would be flatten the mid-range curve just a little with the increased impedance.</P>


    (Hope that bit of info is not confusing. The HC-14 and HC-15 speakers used an 8-ohm midrange, which is exactly what these Pioneers are.)</P>


    --------------END OF COPIED MESSAGE------------</P>


    PS........ Voicing of the ADC5000 is not difficult, but does require a little time. You are correct to start by putting all the bass/treble/mid/gain controls at the 12:00 position. Be sure toset all the amplifier knobsalike. I set them at "8" for a start, then raise or lower if necessary later in the process.</P>


    I hope you have the cage chart which shows which stops come from which tone generator cards. If you do, you only need to set the great principal 8 at the correct level, then match each of the other TG cards to the principal by choosing one of the stops in that group that you canrefer to, and judge how it should relate to the principal. I normally go from the principal to the octave 4, then the superoctave 2, setting the note for note level about equal or a bit softer as the pitch goes up. Next I set the flutes at 8, 4, and 2, to complement the principals. Then I adjust the mixture and trumpet of the great (which are on the same TG board) to taste. Next step is to match the 4' principal of the swell to the octave 4 on the great, then match the salicional with the voix celeste..... you get the idea. For the pedals, use your ear and set it so that pedal stops balance with the manuals and do not distort or overpower.</P>


    Best of luck. That's at wonderful instrument, one of my favorites of all the ADC models.</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

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