Allen Organ Service Contract

[cantornikolaos]

I heard that when you buy a new Allen organ, you are forced into a service contract so no one else can do any service on the organ. No one can get parts for it except Allen reps. If you have a problem with your Allen and don't have a good relationship with the local rep, you are stuck with an expensive paper weight. I also heard this service contract costs a few thousand dollars per year to maintain. </p>

</p>

Is this true?</p>

[jbird604]

Re: Allen Organ Service Contract



Relax, friend. It is true that you will need to have your new Allen serviced by the factory-authorizedservice person in your area, but surely the dealer won't be forcing you into any annual contracts, or at least I hope that isn't the case!</P>


I don't sellnew organs any more, though I once was an Allen salesman and now service all the major brands locally.I cantell you that EVERY digital organ builder will want you to have only his authorized servicer working on the organ, should it require any service during the warranty period. That is only good business and is not a sign of any kind of forced allegiance to a given servicer.</P>


It is also true that the major digital builders do not sell parts to the general public. In other words, they work with a specific set of service technicians in each area of the country, and you will always have to use one of those techs to service the organ if there are any parts to be bought. Again, this is not a policy limited to Allen. All the builders operate in a similar manner. This is one way they protect their customers from possibly inferior work or dishonest dealings with technicians not vetted by the company.</P>


There has been some questioning on this forum and in other circles about the consequences of such a policy. For example, someone who purchases a used organ may find it hard to get parts and service without going through the dealership assigned to the area where he lives. This can be frustrating if the area dealership is actually far, far away, or if the technician they use is not too keen on older technology and seems unable to fix your 20-year-old organ, or if the dealer and tech seem to charge exorbitantly for parts and service calls.</P>


But this is not an issue at all when purchasing a new organ. The dealer will have been required by Allen to stock parts for any organs they sell and their technician will be familiar with all the current models. In the case of those buying used instruments from third parties, I think it's possible to find a technician to work with outside your area if necessary, if one will use the internet resources and be patient. Several members of this forum have learned to do this successfully.</P>


Good luck with choosing a new organ! Hope I've clarified the situation a little.</P>


John</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[cantornikolaos]

Re: Allen Organ Service Contract

Unfortunately, we aren't looking to get a new organ.

[circa1949]

thanks for asking?

Well, you've offended my intellect if nothing else. Your screed is completely preposterous and profoundly ill-reasoned. Apparently you bought a used MDS-26 from an individual. Did Allen make you do that? Did company representatives hold a gun to your head? Then, you were not happy with it. Did you properly evaluate it before purchasing it? Whereas, somehow, this was a popular model and 100s of congregations around the country were happy with it. Somehow you are a special exception. Surely, the hand of G-d LOL.
Are you angry at Ford because they stole jobs from the horse & buggy companies? Do you want G-d to smite them? There's no law against riding horseback...it's just that cars are more convenient for a lot of people. It's called the market. Get used to it. If you don't have a job now, it's not because electronic organs came along. (A person would be a fool to employ you, in any field, with the attitude you show in your post) Many rural churches in the USA had only pianos in the first half of the twentieth century and a case could easily be made that hammonds & later electronic organs preserved the legacy of ecclesiastical music rather than contributing to its demise. Pipe organ companies could be in just as bad a shape now if electronic organs hadn't existed. The good pipe organ companies are healthy and have years of pending orders.
It sounds like you might have had some bad dealings with the local Allen representative...that is not Allen's fault. At least not directly. Did you seek redress with them in a more constructive way than praying for their HQ to be destroyed?

[K3yP1ayer]

My church bought an Allen in 1995, brand-new from the factory. It has held up well. Even pipe organ aficionados are pleased at its sound, so I can't really complain. However, I represent another digital organ company, and I know that sooner or later, this Allen will croak and my congregation, if they haven't become a totally happy-clappy church yet, will ask me for a good deal, and I'll be glad to give it to them. Sorry, but I digress. We were not asked to sign any yearly contract limiting our repairs to the Allen guy, and when our pedal speakers began making all kinds of racket, we asked one of the members (who does sound work for local rock bands) to climb up in the speaker chamber and tell us what was wrong. He did, and discovered that 2 out of 3 had torn cones, so vibrations were causing the cones to rattle like a screendoor in a tornado. He removed the speakers (one at a time for each of 3 weeks) and had them reconed at a fraction of the price Allen would have charged. Today, the speakers sound brand-new.

While I would like nothing better than to sell my congregation a new organ, I am first and foremost an ethical person, and I will not sell them an organ until they need one, and right now, it looks like they won't for a good while. However, I'm also human, and whenever I notice a new electrical problem (like when I turn on the organ, it automatically activates General 8), it makes me smile. Just a little bit, mind you. But I smile nonetheless. Sorry, I just can't help myself. ;^)

[Clarion]

I hope I haven't offended you. If I have, please forgive me.</p>

I found your post not only informative, but consistent with similar reports I've read from so many others who are exasperated by the same negative experiences with Allen.

Thanks for sharing!

[cantornikolaos]

Vindicated

Thank you. I feel a little vindicated now. I was a little on-edge the day I posted my initial rant. I am thinking about deleting it. I tried to amend it a number of times, but had server problems and could not do it. Since the server migration, I have not been able to log in until now.

Allen Organ Company saw the post and e-mailed the dealer about me (I'm famous!) and the dealer e-mailed the priest, the deacon and the parish council president (or his wife who is the organist).

I don't know what to do or say. Part of me wants to apologize and part of me wants to fight back.

I have heard other Allen organs, even other MDS organs that sound great, but ours sounds very artificial. It is the first Allen organ I have ever encountered. I guess you could call that the lasting first impression.

[cantornikolaos]

Is it possible for me to delete this thread or a single post? Is it possible to edit a post?

[circa1949]

allegations

Thank you. I feel a little vindicated now. I was a little on-edge the day I posted my initial rant. I am thinking about deleting it. I tried to amend it a number of times, but had server problems and could not do it. Since the server migration, I have not been able to log in until now.

Allen Organ Company saw the post and e-mailed the dealer about me (I'm famous!) and the dealer e-mailed the priest, the deacon and the parish council president (or his wife who is the organist).

I don't know what to do or say. Part of me wants to apologize and part of me wants to fight back. I am being destroyed by a big, powerful company (that I believe is greedy and amoral) because I don't appreciate bad work. While they say they value their reputation, the organ they made that was installed by an Allen dealer in my church sounds nothing even remotely like a pipe organ. If it did, I would be a lot happier. They act like they don't know why I am not happy, but I don't know how it could make it any more plain.

I have heard other Allen organs, even other MDS organs that sound great, but ours sounds very artificial. It is the first Allen organ I have ever encountered. I guess you could call that the lasting first impression.

Now that you are saying you will delete and/or alter the substance of your statements, I will quote so a frame of reference can be maintained.
being destroyed? exactly how? It sounds to me like you purchased the organ, used, from an Allen dealer, are are disappointed with it. Again, I ask whether a proper evaluation was performed? Did you consider other makers of electronic organs? And what are they doing to destroy you? Have they filed a lawsuit against you for millions of dollars? Have they planted drugs in your car? Have they paid someone to allege you were involved in improprieties with a parishioner?

Maybe the organ doesn't sound like a pipe organ to you. Guess what? I could probably find someone on these boards who thinks the 10 million dollar Marshall & Ogletree organ in NYC doesn't "sound like a pipe organ". For John & Jane Doe off the street, electronic organs have sounded like pipe organs since the days of the Allen TC analog series. Yes, I remember a man telling his daughter that my childhood church's TC3 had pipes above the choir when what was really there was speakers. For that matter, I've heard pipe organs that sounded, for lack of a better term, revolting because the acoustics of the church were so bad. (dry, in that case) I've heard pipe organs that were scaled so small they could barely fill a small country Episcopal church with enough volume to lead the congregation. I don't think anyone, in any of these congregations, thought that a "large powerful company" (LOL) was trying to destroy them.

[cantornikolaos]

Why not just let it go?

I want the content to be deleted, but I don't know how to do it on the new forum format.

[circa1949]

exactly

"If there are lots of people who are similarly unhappy with Allen or its dealers, let them say what they will."

Exactly. Let them come forth. So far on these boards (since 2005), we've never had a poster (to my knowledge) unhappy with Allen's support of a new organ. Support of used organs depends more on the whims of the dealers. Granted, there is not universal happiness in this area. I was happy with my dealer when I needed/wanted parts. Other people have not be happy although in some cases I disputed their grounds for that, but those problems are already extensively documented here. Since almost no manufacturer is willing to sell parts to enhance products they made in the 1980s (e.g, the ADC midi adapter) I don't think the mere expense of the item can be a strike against them. Trust me a pipe organ company would charge "whatever the market will bear" for a MIDI adapter for any organ they made in the 1980s, too.

OK I got carried away, I guess M&O's organ was not 10 million LOL but it was expensive. The point was not even that organ would be good enough for someone out there, although it seems to be good enough for even critical listeners. (cf: http://www.stpatrick.on.ca/sp/organ/committeereport as linked in another thread) Most Allens sold since the MDS era have been good enough for most of the people who bought them, or the company wouldn't be around anymore. (and most Rodgers for that matter) Maybe your dealer is trying to screw you, if you think you have grounds you should document that and try to get Allen to help you, not wish their HQ to be destroyed. You've never even described exactly how the organ disappoints. Is anyone else in your congregation able to document the ways the organ is a let down? Not enough bass? Not enough volume? etc. etc.

[cantornikolaos]

I don't know how much a MIDI adapter for an Allen ADC costs, nor do I know how much a pipe organ MIDI adapter costs. I do know that for a pipe organ console, there are many brands of electronic systems available.

[nullogik]

For John & Jane Doe off the street, electronic organs have sounded like pipe organs since the days of the Allen TC analog series. Yes, I remember a man telling his daughter that my childhood church's TC3 had pipes above the choir when what was really there was speakers.

As an aside to the main thread...That is so true, circa. I was visiting a Church not too long ago that was extensively restoring their small pipe organ. In the meantime they were using a Allen MOS Organ (602D which I just had to have a go on. How could I resist?). Anyway, I was behind this old chap who shook hands with the priest after the service. He said "That new pipe organ sounds great, when was it finished?" To which the reply was, that the vast majority of it was still in bits in the organ builder's workshop and the project still had several months to go to completion. That was the Allen he was hearing.

I couldn't help but smile. It really made my day (as an electronic organ enthusiast). :-)

[DellAnderson]

Allen Organ Company saw the post and e-mailed the dealer about me (I'm famous!) and the dealer e-mailed the priest, the deacon and the parish council president (or his wife who is the organist).

I don't know what to do or say. Part of me wants to apologize and part of me wants to fight back.

There is no harm in apologizing (heaven knows I have had to do my share!).

On the other hand, if you have serious concerns about bullying the church into maintenance contracts etc, why not express them more clearly so that both Allen Corporation and your local dealer, as well as those reading this post can understand them and clarify the issues. Requesting to delete your thread only weakens your arguments and makes it appear that you think Allen Company is bullying you (I don't see any evidence of that yet....) Good communication is key, and if Allen Organ Company is emailing the dealer about you, and he is emailing your church, (how did they know who you were?), it sounds like they may be trying to discover what the problem really is and whether or not others have noticed it, maybe even get it fixed. I cannot imagine any company wanting a bad sounding organ representing them, old or new. In other words, are you just a crank or do you have a legitimate problem with your local dealer.

I had similar concerns regarding my service choices on my ADC organ which were worked out amicably between Allen Corp and myself. I will state for the record that I am not at all thrilled with the perception that it is "OK" for Allen organ to restrict maintenance information and technician access to parts and technical manuals on their OLD organs, limiting them to dealer-authorized technicians (which due to the limited volume in the market place means you either take your local dealer or work with someone in another county!), but it is a financial plan which I believe someone on this board explained to me privately allows Allen Organ Corporation to help their dealers survive, and they have done so remarkably through the years. It is a bit old fashioned perhaps guild-like, but it has worked long enough to keep Allen company in business. I've worked out a compromise with them which satisfies all legalities keeping both dealers and and headquarters happy (I think).

So, everyone's human, maybe you over-interpreted the intentions of the company and said things that were simply emotion-charged opinions, but somewhere in there is a real concern which I'm sure Allen Company would like to make better. Let us know how it goes. Like I said earlier, we all like happy endings! ;-)

[cantornikolaos]

I have Legitimate Concerns

I believe I do have legitimate concerns. I may have let my emotions get the best of me, but I think I have a reason to be upset.

I did believe that we were being forced into annual service contracts. I am not sure if that is true now. I was told by the general manager at the local dealer that we are not under a contract and even that I could perform maintenance to the organ if the church wanted me to. That's cool. We actually had a cordial conversation. I tried to say that I want to reach a common understanding with them and help work out a mutually beneficial solution.

I know the MDS is capable of sounding much more pleasant that it does. Maybe a 3rd-party reverb processor would help. Oh well. I am hoping and praying for a solution and a better-sounding organ. I wish the solution was a mechanical action baroque pipe organ.