Using MIDI on an Allen MDS-50

[UCG Musician]

Is this a good forum to post questions on how to use a MIDI sequencer with an Allen MDS-50?

[UCG Musician]

No one responded to this post. I thought I would receive at least some feedback, even it were simply to say this is NOT a forum where I'm likely to obtain information about using MIDI with an Allen organ. Perhaps my question was too vague.

I want to understand how to use a MIDI sequencing program (Sonar) on a laptop to drive an Allen MDS-50 organ. I know MIDI fairly well but I am new to Allen organs. My church has begun renting another church facility that has one. I would like to ustilize its MIDI capabilities but have been unable to find some of the necessary information, like how stops are controlled via MIDI messages.

Is there anyone on this forum who has familiarity with the subject?

[Momboc]

Firstly you should register on the Allen Organ website as an Allen Organ Owner:

http://www.allenorgan.com/www/owners...wnersclub.html

This will give you access to the User Manuals and other Allen organ documents, and also to ask questions of the Allen Organ Company.

There is no MDS 50 manual available for download but there is an MDS 51 file which downloads as a pdf file.

Unfortunately, Allen do not provide detailed information about utilising MIDI with their organs. There is a 'MIDI guide for Organists' on the Allen Owners Manual Page - download this.

The following is an extract:

MIDI Channelisation should be as follows:
Swell = Channel 1
Great = Channel 2
Pedal = Channel 3
Stops/Pistons = Channel 8

If any external MIDI device is used to transmit information to the Allen organ, the same assignment of MIDI channels must be used as described elsewhere in this manual.



So to get the organ to respond to MIDI from your PC, connect the 'MIDI out' from the PC to the 'MIDI In' of the Organ using a standard Midi cable, (select some stops for each division) and send MIDI data on the above channels.

To get the PC to capture or respond to the Organ then connect another MIDI cable from the MIDI Out on the Organ to the MIDI In of the PC. I'd suggest you use a MIDI program on the PC that allows you to see what data is transmitted by the Organ and then use this data to figure out what program changes the organ sends (on Channel 8) when the stops are activated/deactivated. I would expect that the organ responds to these same program changes when it receives MIDI data on Channel 8. Try it and see.

[UCG Musician]

Momboc,

This gives me some good ideas. I should have mentioned that I have both an MDS-50 owner's manual and a MIDI Console Controller guide. I also registered as an Allen organ owner. I understand the basics of hooking up the laptop to the organ and vice versa. Also, I can sort out issues with multiple channels. Where I'm lacking is in an understanding of stop control. An organist changes stops during a performance. He/she doesn't just change sounds by going to a different manual. The Allen information does not seem to explain what MIDI messages are used to change stops, crescendos, etc. or even how to simply select a piston.

I have used MIDI-OX to display MIDI activity with syntheizers connected to my desktop and will probably use this application to do so with the organ on the laptop. Sonar can receive MIDI dumps of SysEx data, too, but I don't know how useful that would be at this point. But I do like your suggestions and will record MIDI activity in a log in hopes of determining how some of these things are handled on the organ.

Thanks,
UCG Musician

[Momboc]

My Allen Organs predate MIDI so I can't give you first hand experience.

It would be better if Allen provides MIDI Implementation Charts and Stop/Voice Lists correlated to MIDI program change numbers - like most other manufacturers. I doubt whether Allen Organs use Bank Select, so I would just send program changes from #1 to #128 on Channel 8 and see what happens to the stops. If this is succcessful, please record your results and post them.

I would also contact Allen through their website to see if they have more detailed MIDI information that is not posted on the website.

[twnelson]

Try the Allen stop control info on this site:

http://tadstone.home.netcom.com/Stop_schemes.htm

The author has done extensive research into the various manufacturer's MIDI control schemes.

--- Tom

[Momboc]

twnelson - thanks for the link.

Here is a cut and paste of the linked information related to stop control on Allen Organs:

Allen Organ Company
MIDI Controllers 98 and 99 are defined as "Non-registered parameters" ("coarse" and "fine"). The terms "coarse" and "fine" simply mean the two control messages are used together to form the halves of a larger number. The Allen Organ Company uses these controllers (plus Control Code 6 [Data Entry]) to control stops on its line of electronic organs.

The Allen stop number gets split into two parts, transmitted in messages 98 and 99. The value with Control Code 98 is (stop number/128) and the value with Control Code 99 is the remainder of (stop number/128). Allen then sends Control Code 6 with a value of 127 to turn the stop on and 0 to turn it off. Stop numbers come from a Univeral stop list, where a given stop number designates the same sort of stop in each division. Thus stop number 31 in the Great would be "1st Diapason 8'" and 31 in the Pedal would be "Octave 8'"

The sequence to turn on the Great 1st Diapason on an Allen "Classic" organ would be "B1 62 00 B1 63 1F B1 06 7F". "B1" is a control code for channel 2, "62" is the hex value of 98, "1F" is the hex value of 31. Sending this same sequence to channel 3 ("B2") would turn on the Octave 8' in the Pedal.

Allen MIDI channel assignments
Classical [Theater]

1. Swell [Great (3m) Solo (2m)]
2. Great [Accomp]
3. Pedal [Pedal]
4. Choir [Solo (3m)]
5. Solo (4th) [Accomp 2nd touch]
6. 5th Manual [----]
7. ---- [----]
8. General Pistons [General Pistons]



So there you go - it appears Allen uses MIDI controllers 98 and 99 on the respective Organ Division channel to send its stop changes and CC6 to enact the change.

Let us know how this goes.

Allen should have put this type of information in it's documentation. Even the most recent User Manuals still take the prespective of the Allen Organ being used as the 'sending' Controller rather than being used as a 'receiving' sound module.

[UCG Musician]

Ah, finally some information that gets down to the nitty-gritty of it all! It looks far more complex than it probably is. At any rate, this gives me a good start. THANK YOU, Tom and Momboc!
Randy

[DToole]

Decoding "Non-registered parameters."

Hi,

As you know, Allen sends demo songs - usually hymn arrangements - with their instruments on Compact Flash cards.

My church currently has an organist that is simply unable to play many of the accompaniments I need played. I've decided I can put those accompaniments in midi format using Sibelius and Sonar Producer on my computer and play them from the CF card for performance.

Since Allen won't cooperate by offering specifics on how to accomplish this - actually, hardly any help at all - I've decided to decode the midi files they send with their instruments, so that I can tell which NRP (non-registered parameter) corresponds to each stop change.

There are a couple of dozen songs on the CF card, so I expect to have a list of codes and their stop combinations that will offer a range of settings, but not an exhaustive list. After this decoding, I will record new midi files into the organ using simpler stop settings, and add them to the list.

Another option is to choose the organ settings for a particular song first, then record a simple midi song to the CF card on the organ (very simple, as I'm not an organist), then transfer the NRPs to the anthem's midi file using Sonar.

I'll keep the board posted on how this works out.

[sadatoni]

Join the Yahoo Allen-Organ-Owners group, and look for the file "Allen Theater Organ Specs.xls" It lists the NPRN's for several different models. It won't match an MDS-50, but it will give you an idea of how Allen does MIDI.

To drive and Allen from your computer, if your computer does not have MIDI ports, you'll want a USB to MIDI interface (I use an M-Audio Midisport 2x2). Interesting that the theater models differ from the classic models in the midi channel assignments (it's in the console controller guide).

[Johnallen]

Hi there, can any one perhaps tell me where about is the midi ports located on an Allen organ? I tried to searched but did not find any.

[toodles]

If MIDI was installed at the factory (MDS and later models), there is a panel under the keydesk with MIDI inputs and outputs; some also have audio hookup. If it was field installed (mostly ADC models), then it was up to the installer if and where he installed the ports.

[Johnallen]

Thanks for the info. I managed to locate the midi ports. As i haven't connected a usb to midi cable before, is there any latency issues? I have got an I7 Intel processor.

[John Kinkennon]

The time delay in a MIDI connection is normally way less than what is noticeable. However, if the MIDI signal is driving virtual organ software then it is possible that there will be objectionable latency unless a professional audio interface is carefully set up using ASIO drivers. This is the really quick answer -- I've been able to get just barely acceptable results from my laptop with its built in sound capabilities, so experiment with what you have first, and then don't be surprised if you need a better sound card.

[Johnallen]

Thanks John. Do you use a Midi interface on your laptop, and if so which types is recommended?
I just bought a 32 channel usb to midi cable to try on the organ first.