Allen 201

[cantornikolaos]

There's an Allen 201 organ on Craigslist that isn't too far from me and it's a price I can afford! LOL! That tells you how rich I am. I am not sure if it is an MOS I or MOS II. Does it have moving capture action?

I thought this might make a decent practice organ or something of that nature. I'm also itching to see how much it can be enhanced by a Lexicon reverb unit.

Without the multi-computer configuration of the 705, what will mixture breaks be like?

I played this or a similar model once just to hear how it sounds. I never used the mixture, just built a Principal chorus while doodling around. It sounded decent. Since the external speakers were pointed away from me, it actually sounded better than the one at the church I attend. LOL! I guess it's all in the installation.

[Momboc]

An Allen 201 is MOS 1 generation. They are AGO spec so they do make a decent practice organ.

Yes it does having a moving capture action.

I can't talk about the original mixture voices because I pulled the Allen electronics out and replaced them with MIDI encoders so that the console hardware could be used as a controller with Hauptwerk

If you want to install a reverb unit then you'll have to insert that between the Digital to Analogue Converters (DACs) and the amplifiers. One problem with early Allens is that the audio signal levels are very low so you may have problems getting enough signal into the reverb unit.

If it comes with the original speakers, you may find that the drivers need new foam suspension or reconing (or complete driver replacement if you like)

[cantornikolaos]

Mic Level pre-amps should bring the audio up. There is a guy on youtube with an MOS 301 running through Mic level amps. I'm interested to hear how that would sound with good reverb. When more money happens, I'll MIDI-fy that baby into a hauptwerk MIDI console. I want to keep the capture action and stop switches though.

[Momboc]

I have an Allen 1203 console which is also MOS1 vintage and has extremely dry samples. It has 8 channels of (low level) audio which I feed into a Behringer mixer. I had to set the input gains on the mixer to 'maximum' to bring the levels up -and then I mix it down to stereo. I then feed this through a Behringer 'Virtualiser' to add reverb and use an external amp and refurbished Allen HC12 speakers. Sounds satisfactory - but it still doesn't compare to Hauptwerk.

My Allen 301 has internal reverb, controlled by a stop tab - which is OK.

[cantornikolaos]

I'd like to hear a reverbed Allen of older vintage. I'm just curious. I'm sure I t wouldn't touch HW or a real pipe organ, but I'm sure those dry samples could be livened up quite a bit.

[arie v]

Nikolaos,

Actually the Allen MOS-1 organs were not really sample based organs. It was more a crude waveform repetitively played out. A stop only had a single half of one waveform to define the sound. When more than one stop was used, quite often the waveforms would be summed into a new waveform. That they sounded as good as they did surprises me. As a result the tone is dry, buzzy in the treble, hollow in the bass, and generally very machine like in quality.
Adding reverb does not really improve the basic tone, just gives the ears a bit of a massage when hearing these organs.
I have heard these MOS-1 organs in big rooms, but I can readily tell that it is an early Allen digital. In other words, they never fool me into thinking they sound like pipes or even HW.

AV

[cantornikolaos]

When did they actually begin using real samples. One tech told me it was with Renaissance. I do think renaissance was a real upgrade for Allen. the MDS was MUCH better than prior generations, but it can't touch the Renaissance!

If i can get this thing, I'll see how livable it is with a reverb unit and save up for a MIDI project. Maybe it will become the console for my cute little 3-rank pipe organ.

[arie v]

Hi,

I'm not an expert in all things Allen, but judging from examples that I have come across, I believe some of the larger late ADC models had some real samples with real sampled attacks attached to them. The MDS built on that even more, especially the later MDS models. With Renaissance essentially they went from hardware control to software. Many of the sounds were still the same. Technically, the potential with Renaissance is better.
Most Renaissance organs I have heard don't even sound as good as the better MDS organs, so go figure.

I'm sure someone here can tell you much more.

I think the biggest problem with Allen, is that tonally they have not progressed near as much as most companies, so increasingly they are not considered automatically like they were 20 or 30 years ago.

AV

[Momboc]

In my opinion, Allen MOS 1 organs have excellent hardware (cabinetry, manuals, pedalboard, stops, bench, etc) but low quality tone generation, particularly when compared to Hauptwerk. This makes them most suitable for a MIDI project.

Your approach is correct. Buy a working, inexpensive, local, AGO spec Allen MOS 1, add reverb, and initially use it as a practice instrument.

Later on when you can afford to, MIDIfy the organ. You can do this by either:

a. addding the Harrison Labs MIDI card, which allows you to retain the original Allen tones, but does require the Allen keyboard array cards to be working.
This card does not MIDIfy the stops - so you'd have to use touch screens for registration changes.

b. gut the console and substitute aftermarket MIDI encoders in place of the Allen electronics, which is eliminates the original Allen voicing but allows you to MIDIfy the whole organ - stops included. However you do need some ability with wiring and a soldering iron.

Given that the Allen Organ Company itself has placed MOS1 cards in it's own museum I think that retaining the original voicing is unnecessary. I prefer option 'b'.

I prefer Allen's 'Traditional' console style versus the 'Contemporary' console style.

[thadfield]

I have a 301 mos1 that I've been working with. It's been in the garage because frankly, I didn't even think it sounded as good as my B3 as a classical organ (so that isn't saying much). I was thinking of giving it away. I added a TC Electronic M350 Effects/Reverb to it that I got off of Craigslist for $75. It is transformed. I'm sure it's not the equivalent of an HW, but adding a little chorus and reverb effect really made it pleasing to play. Of course, it still has its Model 16 and Model 32 A/B speakers on it, which makes the 32' sound incredible... and (do to their size, and ugliness) keeps it restricted to the garage! So, I'm sure it all depends on how good it has to sound to you, but a little effects makes a big difference, in my opinion.

[cantornikolaos]

I'm assuming that the waveform is based on a sample. This might be slightly off-topic, but I don't think physical modeling touches sampling either.

@ Momboc, Plan B is what I want to do. Add reverb to the Allen and have some fun, then gut it and make it into a nice MIDI console. I do think Allen's older consoles were well-made and quite rugged. I'd really love to have a drawknob console! These old consoles deserve a new lease on life.

I'm thinking Artisan Sound Engine + Cute little pipe organ + more ranks of pipes = really freakin' awesome!

[michaelhoddy]

The original 1970's "Allen Digital Computer" technology is not really sampling in the classic sense, although Allen has always referred to it as such. It's really a form of Fast-Fourier-Transform synthesis, as near as I can tell. Their literature from that period talks of mathematical analysis of waveforms and the storing of coordinate or harmonic data in memory, which is exactly what FFT synthesis is. Also, the digital memory capacity and capabilities of the time period would have not allowed for much more than that anyway. The original form, as I believe Arie said, did only use half of the waveform and did make a single composite waveform out of multiple stops at some level, rather than parallel generation and combining as with later organs. FFT-based technologies can actually do a great job with organ tone production, as later Allen generations would prove.

Renaissance is straight digital sampling. ADC is a evolution of the original FFT-type technology. Things get much murkier with MDS- the later MDS organs almost certainly had sampled transients and wind generation of some sort, although I believe that the basic tones were still FFT-generated, based on the amount of memory used. Hard to tell for sure.

All that to say that I played a MOS1 201 for a few years in a small church. At least in that space, it was not a very good-sounding organ- alternating between hollow and screechy. Maybe some reverb would help, but the basic underlying tonality was pretty weak in these one-computer organs, especially after you combined more than about 3 stops. The console is a great MIDI retrofit candidate, however.

[cantornikolaos]

My church's organ is an MDS-26. The installation is sorry! The voicing probably isn't that great either. The organ was made in 1995. A tech told me it had some samples but told me that the backbone of the organ's sound is not real samples, but waveforms like the MOS and ADC generations. He said he likes some of the ADC organs better than MDS.

I've heard some decent-sounding ADC and MDS organs.

Here are a few vids of an MOS 301 organ from the early 1970s. It sounds surprisingly good considering how primitive it is. In one video a phenomenon occurs where the organ actually sounds pretty good. I'll yak about that in more detail right below the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShYG9rVT4Pg

Here he is playing a lovely old Lutheran hymn, "Jesu, meine Freude". BTW, I'm not lutheran, but I like this hymn! He starts with celestes and strings and flutes. The sound of the analogue celeste is pretty sweet. It has a sound of its own. Then he switches to a principal chorus and it again sounds surprisingly good for its vintage.

Really, I think the organ could from the videos of it that there are hold its own against my church's MDS. LOL!

Here is a vid showing the repair of the amplifiers, by subbing in Mic amplifiers. I think one of them is 40W!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsbYpCsEBxo

When "Retrochad" is talking about the amps inside the church, you can hear "Organist1982" playing around on the organ in the nave. It actually sounds pretty good from another room! That gave me a crazy idea. Why not put the speakers in a 10' x 10' room with all hard, reflective surfaces and let the sound bounce around in there before coming out to my ears?

Once the video camera is in the nave with the organ, it sounds less impressive. Also, the fact that there is praise band crap in the room must be imposing some sort of curse on the organ. :P

Lastly, here is a vid taken a year later with the same organ having tuning problems. I am again struck by how good this organ sounds at least compared to my church's organ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBrmkprsjOo

I think some of the sound quality issues in this vid are from the video camera's mic(s).

It doesn't touch a real pipe organ or even HW, but it does sound surprisingly good for what it is.

[cantornikolaos]

Here's an MOS in Scotland. It must be in a big church with nice acoustics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkMJgWgelgA&NR=1

[cantornikolaos]

Here's a recording of my church's Allen MDS-26. I added reverb on my computer before posting. Sadly, the sound of the organ without reverb added is much more dry and uninspiring! The church has a 2 second reverb naturally. I do think a nice reverb unit would liven it up quite a bit. The way sound comes from a speaker and the way sound comes from a pipe is completely different and it requires a bit of wizardry to compensate for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oAUlT8ef8o