Allen Elite Opus VII

[don60]

I visited my friend in Roanoke, Virginia last weekend and attended 9 am Sunday Mass at St. Andrew's, home of Opus VII. The weather that day was typical for January in southwest Virginia--sunny with a high around 60 degrees. (Thank you global warming!)

Those who have not already viewed Allen's Web pages (http://www.allenorgan.com/www/instal...163/page1.html)
on this instrument probably ought to do so, as I believe the building and the installation play critical roles in determining its sound. The video from the local TV station is especially helpful because it includes several images that illustrate the relatively small size of the choir loft and pipe chambers relative to the santuary.

In addition to the hymns and responses, the organist played two preludes, a post-communion piece, and a postlude. One of the preludes was Brahms's Lo How a Rose played entirely on the celesta, the one novelty stop in the disposition. The post-communion piece was an unusual, almost dissonant setting of We Three Kings; I cannot say for sure, but I believe it may have been played on one of the historic temperaments. The postlude was God of Grace, God of Glory by Paul Manz, with a typical full-organ registration.

Given its impressive specifications, I was predisposed to like this organ and expect great things from it. Sadly, I must report that I was not overwhelmed by its sound. With a full principal chorus drawn, it often sounded rather sterile, even phase-locked like an electronic divider organ. (To be fair, most of the time this registration was used to accompany congregational singing so I did not have a chance to hear the organ alone.) Lighter registrations sounded a good deal better; occasionally with just a flute and string drawn, the sound became almost transparent, with the exquisite randomness of real pipes coming through unimpeded by the whole electronic/digital process actually used to create the sound. As one would expect, the reeds (at least used in solo applications) were uniformly wonderful with lots of good articulation and harmonic development.

My overall impression is that of a potentially fine instrument being impeded by a second-rate installation and perhaps inadequate voicing. As one can see from the stills and video on Allen's site, the choir loft is quite small and remote relative to the size of the sanctuary, and the "pipe" (now speaker) chambers likewise quite small. Fitting enough speakers into the available space and making these speakers project adequately into the sanctuary would be very challenging, and I do not believe the result is a success. Having heard the precursor 12-rank Zimmer, I can say that it seemed to suffer from similar problems; perhaps the building, however grand its appearance, is just not amenable to organ music.

Interestingly, the sound clips that Allen posted were all recorded at the factory during final voicing where presumably the speaker placement and room acoustics would be nearly ideal. Even with the limitations of compressed audio via Internet, these clips sound first-rate to my ears and markedly better than what I heard in the church last week--again suggesting that the installation suffers from poorly placed or inadequate speakers and some voicing problems rather than a fundamental flaw in the instrument itself.

I hope someone else will visit St. Andrew's in the near future to give his impressions as well.

Don

[jbird604]

Interesting, Don. Wish I lived in that area and could give it a listen. You have probably nailed it -- great potential but handicapped by the building or an inadequate finishing process. Looking forward to seeing other reports on what should be a triumph for Allen! Perhaps if word got back to Allen corrective measures would be taken.

[jbird604]

Wow, just listened to the recordings made on the organ at the factory. It's got the sound, that's for sure! If it's disappointing in the church there must be some problem with the environment in the church. I wonder if the old facade pipes left standing there for display are actually blocking the tone in some way? Since someone paid $300,000 for that organ they ought to be getting some top-notch sound, and I know that organ can do it.

[myorgan]

I wonder if the old facade pipes left standing there for display are actually blocking the tone in some way?

John,

I tend to agree with you. In my town, we also have an Allen Heritage that was placed in the old Estey pipe chambers, and it wasn't much of an improvement over the Estey. Of course, the church members really don't notice a difference, but knowing what a pipe organ *should* sound like, it is rather disappointing. They did leave the chests and pipes in the chambers in hopes of connecting them to the organ, but that hasn't happened yet. I played a 3-manual Zimmer in South Carolina for a few years, and it was pencil-scaled. It didn't have a lot of punch, even with Sforzando engaged or Crescendo pedal open.

Of course, Don, don't discount the organist's registrations. That said, however, on that organ I would think it would be rather difficult to register incorrectly if one knows their trade. There's not much left out of the stoplist (except maybe 1' stops).

Michael

[circa1949]

Don, thanks for your review. It would be interesting if you could also visit the large Johannus in Springfield, VA, and compare your impressions.
I did notice, to a slight degree, the sensation of "phase lock" on the recent Quantum Allen I listened to central PA, but I attributed this to the limited speaker/channel complement compared to the super-Johannus. Surprising to know an Elite had this problem; I'm nowhere near 100% versed in the relevant acoustic theory but I suspect that, like perfect pitch, this is just a problem that some peoples' ears can easily pick up, and some peoples' ears cannot. And with the "Elite" range involved, it's hard to believe that a "problem" wouldn't have been corrected if it were something the organist were displeased with. In any case, the Johannus seemed entirely devoid of the phenomena, to me at least, so I would love to know if you have the same experience with it. The only thing that made that organ "unrealistic" is that one would never believe so many pipes could be stuffed into such a small sanctuary.

[don60]

Circa, I do plan to hear the Johannus in the near future. From your review, it appears that this instrument might be the organ that announces the company's arrival in the high-end American market.

As we have noted elsewhere, most of the realism or lack of it in modern digitals seems to flow from the audio installation and room acoustics, not the technology of tone reproduction. I presume that the installing dealer for the Johannus simply had more success in fitting it to the building than did the Allen's.

Yes, it is surprising that no one at St. Andrew's--especially the organist--seems to have put up a fuss over its disappointing sound. I can think of three reasons for this result:
1. Some musically knowledgeable congregants do realize that the organ is disappointing, but they are afraid to say anything because it cost so much and is the source of so much pride in the parish.
2. No one in the congregation truly understands what a good pipe organ should sound like, and the new organ is big and impressive enough to make them think that it is authentic and wonderful.
3. The organist (and Aram Basmadjian, who apparently did the finishing during installation) do hear a satisfactory sound from their positions in the choir loft and have never had the chance to walk around the church while someone else plays.

I really hope someone else can make the trip to Roanoke and either confirm my observations or tell me that I am all wet. St. Andrew's is a great parish with wonderful, friendly people and a very energetic pastor (whom I know from our time down the road in Blacksburg MANY years ago). I want to see them get the full potential out of their organ, and as John said the instrument itself seems to have the chops.

Don

[arie v]

Don,

Having seen, heard and played several Allen Elites, I must say that they are the best Allen organs I have come across, both in terms of ensemble as well as tone.

However, you zeroed in on a problem, that is common to electronic organs, that of being sterile in combinations. The reality is that there is not enough independence relating to tone and pitch production from beginning to end. With a digital organ because of it being digital is very mathematical, and everything wants to be perfect. However, with pipe organs, you have a winded system, which causes increased variation in tone and pitch as more pipes are called on to play. This gives a pipe organ it's ensemble sound. In digital organs the more you add, the less it seems to have this variation of tone and pitch. That is why so many electronic (digital) organ do not have a very interesting ensemble sound, although they may have plenty of volume, bass, treble etc.

When I was in charge of installing digital organs, beginning around the mid 90s, I spent a lot of time on getting the ensemble sound to sing. Most of it had to do with the audio channeling and how the tuning of the stops was done. When I was done the organ had a much more unlocked sound, and was listenable. It was then easy to repeat the same procedure to the same or similar organs. I could always tell which organs I had voiced, as they had my "secret recipe" in them.

Don, in your previous post, point #3 is important. The organ may sound more lively and natural in the loft in an empty church, than on the main floor with the church full of people. It is a bit of a temptation to sometimes voice down and very smooth and even when setting up in the loft, only to find it sounding static and bland when full of people and on the main floor.

I think what you said in this thread is important, and shows that digital organs are still very often a different breed from a fine pipe organ.

AV

[Clarion]

My overall impression is that of a potentially fine instrument being impeded by a second-rate installation and perhaps inadequate voicing. . . . Fitting enough speakers into the available space and making these speakers project adequately into the sanctuary would be very challenging, and I do not believe the result is a success. . . . again suggesting that the installation suffers from poorly placed or inadequate speakers and some voicing problems rather than a fundamental flaw in the instrument itself.

I suppose that the quality of a product is only as good as it's weakest link; and when it comes to Allen, the weakest link is usually the dealer, along with Allen's demand that their organs be set up, voiced and serviced only by their local dealer, no matter how incompetent. And when it comes to incompetent dealers, from the multitude of reports on this forum from frustrated customers who have found themselves stuck with a terrible organ installed by an incompetent dealer, that makes the Allen choice a really scarey venture. The organ itself might be absolutely wonderful, but in the hands of a totally incompetent dealer, the customer ends up taking the lumps! And Allen doesn't really seem to give a damn!

In contrast: With Phoenix, on the other hand, each and every organ is specifically designed and engineered for the environment in which it is to be installed; and the final voicing done personally by Don Anderson, Phoenix CEO. He travells all over North America, personally overseeing the completion of each and every installation. Did he travel to my home for something like my humble home installation? Yup!!

The incidence of Allen dealers who don't know squat about designing an organ for a specific environment; and even less about voicing and organ, would leave any prospective customer running for cover!

Ultimately, I have developed a great respect for Phoenix. Their installations tend be be flawless, except for one notably horrible installation where they conceded to allow a church to supply their own sound system in order to save $$$. But no matter how successful Phoenix designs and installations have been over the years, I found it most interesting that they also realize their limitations. For instance, they chose to engage the services of well known sound engineers to ensure a flawless installation of the new organ at St. Michael's Cathedral in downtown Toronto:

http://phoenixorgans.com/installatio...stallation=146

The sound-engineering firm chosen was G. H. Grassby and Associates:

http://www.grassby.ca/

A firm that specializes in sound systems for large churches and auditoriums.

And interesting sidebar to this installation, is that while the Phoenix III/68 will be the primary organ for the Cathedral, St. Michael's is also installing a secondary organ, a pipe organ of respectible specification situtated in the balcony, controlled by the primary Phoenix console.

The entire installation was a collaboratorative effort on the part of well know Toronto organist William O'Meara, Phoenix Organ Company, and auditorium sound engineers G.H. Grasby and Associates.

[circa1949]

Don60, I look forward to your impressions of the Springfield Johannus. Since it has quite vast tonal resources, I wonder whether the average Sunday service will do it justice. OTOH, if they bought a 400K organ, I hope (!) the congregation expects to have the proverbial hair blown off their heads once in a while. And the organist will have had a few months now to get used to playing it.

[whayes]

Hi all, I haven't been on here in a while, but thought I'd chime in on this post...

I agree that the voicing and tonal finishing aspects are of utmost importance in digital organ installations, and also pipe organ installations as well. I know that many dealers and installers are inadequately trained and just simply "throw" the organs into churches and either just choose to spend little time voicing them, or just simply don't do so because they don't have the knowledge. The church in which I grew up installed a brand new Allen Quantum three-manual instrument in the fall. I have been asked to give a concert there in March. While I was home during Christmas visiting family, I went to the church to play the instrument and start planning my concert. I was underwhelmed to say the least about the tonal finishing of the instrument, and I believe it to be the fault of the dealer and the installation. I have had the opportunity to play many Allens here in my local area in Texas and the results have been breathtaking. Our Allen dealer here is top notch in my opinion.

However, in this other state, with another Allen dealer, that appears not to be the case. I was so disappointed with this instrument after playing it in December, that I approached the Minister of Music about my opinion of the voicing, and I have scheduled additional time at home the week prior to my concert to work with the local Allen reps so that I can help them voice the instrument. After playing it, I really didn't want to give the concert unless the organ was revoiced. It literally sounded like perhaps the organ was voiced at the factory, and then put into the church, overall amplifier volumes adjusted, and left at that...

As a few examples, the swell Oboe was louder than the Trompette. The choir Erzahler and Celeste was significantly louder than the swell Viola Pomposa and Celeste. The 32' ContreBombarde was barely audible, and the choir Festival Trumpet was more reminiscent of a chorus reed. The speed of the tremulants on all divisions were ENTIRELY too fast. I thought those to be such obvious anomalies, that had anyone spent any time listening stop by stop, it would have been glaringly obvious. I really question why the church's current organist hadn't even complained about it. I am thankful that the church is allowing me to work with the Allen rep, and glad that the rep was on board with it as well. Even though I'm no organ installation expert by any stretch of the imagination, I have been fortunate to have played dozens of both pipe and digital instruments, so I know a bit about how sounds should be balance within and among divisions. I am hopeful spending a week with the Allen folks revoicing the instrument will have a marked improvement on the sound. The samples themselves in the instrument are quite nice, but they just aren't balanced well and the resulting ensemble leaves something to be desired.

[jbird604]

You are very kind to do this for your home church, Will. Even if the present organist hasn't noticed these anomalies others would have in the future, and your expertise applied at this point will be a lasting heritage for the church's music program.

It's sad to hear that the dealer was so careless with that install, but not surprising. Voicing irregularities as bad as you describe are all too commonplace. Some dealers apparently just deliver the equipment, plug it together, pick up the check, and leave. I think Allen (and Rodgers and others) try to make their instruments fairly foolproof to set up, but you never know what an installing dealer might do, turn a knob here and there without realizing what effect it has on the stop balance or ensemble. All the more sad because we know how good these instruments can sound when even a little care is taken with details like speaker placement and of course tonal finishing.

I hope you are able to bring out the best in that organ, both in the finishing process and in recital. Will you be telling us where and when? (I think I know the city from our previous conversations.) Have fun!

[davidecasteel]

Will, I live in Dallas and would be interested in attending your concert. When and where will it be? (I can't guarantee I'll come--I have a lot of evening commitments--but I'll certainly give it consideration.)

David

[don60]

We haven't even figured out Opus VII yet, and Opus VIII pops up on Organ of the Week. This one is going to Senegal--I am so NOT going to make a trip to hear it any time soon!

Don

[robmcginn]

Hi All.
After hearing the Allen in St Andrews on youtube ( absolutely not the way to appraise any organ!!) I commented to the young lady who was going to be dong a recital there this summer. She also has videos of the older Zimmer. I asked why they did not consider combing the new Allen with the old Zimmer pipes in a hybrid. She answered that only the swell division of the Zimmer was holding its own and that the new Allen was vastly superior in every respect.

Allen dealers, I guess, cross the spectrum from excellent to indifferent. My only real experience here in Thunder Bay is with The Winnipeg Organ Center and Ken has been just super since my first purchase on an Allen for a practise organ about 1985.
Some installations could be defficient because of church cost saving??
Rob

[don60]

Yes, some installations are deficient because the churches do not want to spend extra on more speakers. And some are deficient because the churches do not want to make room for more speakers; they mostly do not understand the need for the large number of cabinets that go along with a first-rate installation--all they see and care about is the console.

One Allen dealer who does understand voicing and cabinet placement gave me a good rule that makes perfect sense: To sound like the pipe organ that it purports to imitate, an electronic organ must move a comparable amount of air--and that means lots of speakers well-placed in the same way pipes are.

Don