Needing help to select a New Church Organ

[prm]

PianOrgan, this is not an easy decision to make; I know, been there, done that. But your Allen T-15 is tradeable which might make an Allen a lot more affordable than you think. The other issue is service issues if and when they occur down the line. I know this has been mentioned before, but parts are ALWAYS available for an Allen, no matter what year/vintage. In the long run, it might-well be worth a phone call.

[robmcginn]

Another thread where a gentleman was wondering what instrument for his church has him purchasing an Allen Q205.
This was built in 2007 so much of the warranty will still apply up to ca 2017. I did not get the purchase price though.
I don't think you would go wrong with Phoenix (new) or Allen ( recent second hand or new)
Look how long your old analog Allen has lasted and yes parts are always there. Some state they are expensive but at least the parts are there!
I do like the Phoenix approach and they build quality stuff too but I ahve not played one and I would never judge any organ based on Youtube only.

[michaelhoddy]

PianOrgan, this is not an easy decision to make; I know, been there, done that. But your Allen T-15 is tradeable which might make an Allen a lot more affordable than you think. The other issue is service issues if and when they occur down the line. I know this has been mentioned before, but parts are ALWAYS available for an Allen, no matter what year/vintage. In the long run, it might-well be worth a phone call.

A T-15 is unlikely to have much inherent value at this point. Any dealer who takes one on "trade" is simply doing so to incentivize a new purchase.

[LCO]

I'm not really trying to hijack this thread, but I'm in the same boat as PianOrgan. Please forgive me if I should have started this up anew.

We are looking at a Roland C-380 for a small church (about 100+) and have been fortunate enough to have had it "on trial" to use for about the past month. We have been using the tiny satelite speakers and the volume could definitely be improved, but what a FUN instrument to play!

The church meeting is coming up and I know we will be asked "What else have you looked at?" Well, we haven't really, so I started a search. Now I have found a used Rodgers Allegiant 678 for $15,500 (reasonably local to us), about $4,000 less than the C380 new. With external speakers/installation we are looking at $26000 for the C380. About $1000 more than we gave to the congregation as a top end. I don't know how much that will effect the support we have already garnered.

Any comments of comparability, quality, service issues - we are over 4 hours from our closest Rodgers service tech. - would be appreciated. Also recommendations on speakers, which is as good as speaking a foriegn language to me, but I'll try to understand.

Thank you for this forum!
LCO

[LCO]

Sorry for the duplicate, obivously I was impatient in waiting for my initial post to be moderated. LCO

[arie v]

Hi,

The C-380 audio/speaker system is inadequate for a church. Typically in those situations, in the near field the sound will be loud, but little bass, poor dispersion, and quick falloff in terms of loudness. This system may very well work in a home or studio setting, but generally is a disappointment when playing for a singing congregation.

So, no matter what make or model you get, get external speakers. The more discrete audio channels and speakers the better. And don't forget, proper setup and voicing is important too.

The C-380 vs the Allegiant 678. The C-380 is a new platform organ, which has been praised in terms of sound. The downside to the C-380 is that it is not an AGO console, and the build quality not likely as good. The C-380 is made in a Roland factory in Italy. The Allegiant model may also have better options in terms of audio routing and audio packaging that can be added to it. Some folks are impressed with a drawstop console.

A Rodgers 725 deemed unfixable? What is wrong with it? Generally Rodgers organs from that era are not hard to fix, very little proprietary parts in them. Maybe someone out there is more interested in selling you a new one. You never know.

AV

[LCO]

The Rodgers 725 is currently playable, but the five notes C though E, in a certain octave (depending on stops selected) don't sound. As long as you have 8' and 4' stops it will still sound, but minus the 8' in one octave and minus the 4' in the next octave down... The 16' in the pedals is very week at the low range, and a few F#'s aren't sounding... the repair man wanted to hot-wire the celeste, but it's not working on those notes either... he was very confused and even contacted Rodger directly while he was there... unfortunately the man he wanted to talk to wasn't around. This repair man was quite old - which I say with all due respect, he's been doing this for a very long time - and said there's not usually much he can't fix. He talked about transistors leaking and or drying out. He recommended a new organ. I kept playing it for services although the missing notes were quite frustrating, while the other organist moved completely over to the spinnet piano. Then she arranged for this 380 to show up on trial.

The recommended sound system from the dealer for the Roland consists of 1PCA S200B Amp, 1 QSC 12" subwoofer (which he says may sit on the floor next to the organ - doesn't make for a happy Pastor), 1 RA200 Auto on interface and 4 FR1 tone cabinets. For an installed total of $6900.

LCO

[arie v]

Hi LCO,

Sounds like the problem with the organ is that there are a number of consecutive oscillators dead. I'm not sure there are even Celeste oscillators on this organ, as it was a small model, and Rodgers just used phase shifters on the smaller instruments to get a celeste type effect. Maybe someone on this list knows more about this model than I do.

I suppose it could also be something in the time share circuitry.

If the 16' stops are very weak, it is possible that the bass speaker is unhooked, possibly the amp is blown, or a fuse is blown, or the level of the bass channel is not right. Those cheap wheel type pots that Rodgers used back then had a habit of corroding/oxidizing so that the value would change in a big way.

The external speakers do sound like an improvement over the stock internal audio. Price looks reasonable as well.

AV

[LCO]

Yes, the repair tech did talk about the oscillators being dead, but he was unable to determine why. Apparently it was not the "normal" reason or solution. The tech from another Rdgers dealer also called a few weeks later saying he had run into the same problem and was unable to fix that one either. He even said he would put me in touch with their sales guy, but I never did get a call from them.

Any thoughts on the servicable life of a C380 vs the Allegiant? Anyone interested in a Rodgers 725?

LCO

[Weimar16]

Newbie, if you are located in PA, you may send me a private message. I may be able to help you out.

[LCO]

I'm guessing you are talking to me, Weimar16. I'm way out west. But thanks.

LCO

[arie v]

LCO,

If a number of consecutive oscillators are dead, I would look for something that is common to all of them, such as a trace, cold solder joint etc. Generally those Rodgers oscillators were very durable.

As to which of the 2 organs proposed would give better long term satisfaction, I would say the Allegiant - has better build quality. I don't think the quality of the electronics would be much different between the two.

AV

[myorgan]

If a number of consecutive oscillators are dead, I would look for something that is common to all of them, such as a trace, cold solder joint etc. Generally those Rodgers oscillators were very durable.

As to which of the 2 organs proposed would give better long term satisfaction, I would say the Allegiant - has better build quality. I don't think the quality of the electronics would be much different between the two.

Forgive me for stepping on this thread, but has someone tried summoning our resident JBird for assistance? Considering the number of Rodgers instruments that have passed through his churches and his hands, from the description, it sounds like something he would know how to fix immediately. At least he could have LSO ask the right questions of the service guy he has.

Hope this helps.

Michael

[cantornikolaos]

If you're still looking for an organ and if I may add my .02...

Coulter Organ builders can build a small pipe organ for about $30,000. It is pretty small, but I'd take 4 real ranks over 100 ranks of toaster! Give My church's Allen one listen and you'll know why! Sorry voicing, inadequate audio system, unethical and unprofessional behavior on the part of the dealer... I bet you'll die guessing what brand I'd never encourage you to buy.

Here's a link to Coulter's website.

http://coulterorgans.com/projects/SeriesOrgan.html

If I HAD to have an electronic organ, I would look for one that can have pipes added and supports pipe organ connectivity "out of the box". That way, if you ever want to add pipes, you aren't limited. Adding 2 or more ranks to an AG or Rogers organ would not be that expensive and that would be a nice 2-stage organ project. The organ speakers and pipes could be housed inside an aesthetically-attractive organ case with a facade. With competent voicing and an adequate audio system, it would be a nice blend of sound.