Best Choice for Small Church?

[nobodyyouknow]

Hello!

I have been tasked with purchasing a new organ for our church. We have an organ player who is not really an organist but rather a pianist, but he plays well for our modest needs. We sing traditional hymns only, nothing contemporary or praise and worship at all. We'd like something with that rich, full, traditional organ sound.

We currently have an old off brand 1950's model that was donated to the church 10+ years ago, but is on its last leg. We'd like to get a new organ, but we have zero budget. Realistically, it will take a fundraising campaign to raise, I'm thinking, around $10-15K.

I've looked at Allen and Rogers. I've been told to stay away from Hammond because that's not our sound. Is that true?

The entry level new Allen chapel series are around 14-15k. I'm wondering if we should purchase a used one instead.

If you were in my position, what would you look for? A few more details:

- Church holds about 250-300 people
- Organ is used for congregational hymn singing and a few specials here and there, played along with a piano and a few horns/strings
- We'd like something that will last a while without much maintenance

Any help is appreciated, thank you!

[jbird604]

Your budget is probably on the low end for a suitable organ in that size church. I'm not in the retail organ business any more (I was 20 years ago), but am in the service end of it now and only know prices from what I see the dealers putting in. There are low-end models from several sources (Viscount, Johannus, to name two) that might suffice, but premium builders don't have much to offer in that range. The smallest Allen doesn't even have an AGO pedalboard, which could be a bad thing even if your player is not a trained organist, depending on who you'er talking to, of course. The AGO spec is truly an organist's friend and anything less will eventually prove frustrating to deal with, IMHO anyway.

A really smart and creative dealer/salesman/installer might do you a decent job in that range with a Viscount or Johannus because there wouldn't be so much of your money tied up in the console itself. But you'd be better off if you could spend $20K or more. Be aware that a dealer may well want to sell a church of that size a $50K organ, as that is more typical for that size church, and especially with a small orchestra to accompany. You need at least some kind of external speaker setup, and don't settle for just plugging the organ into the sound system! No matter what anybody says, that is a bad idea, worse than settling for internal speakers only. (Again, IMHO.)

You might consider finding a used organ. My little company installs a fair number of refurbished organs, many of them removed from churches and less than 20 years old, so quite modern as organs go. We can often do a decent setup for well under $20K in a small to mid-size church. But I don't know where you are located, so I'm not sure I could help you. It's possible you could search ebay or craigslist for a late model Allen or Rodgers and get a good price, but there could be installation issues, setup and voicing, repairs or defects, and other things to deal with that are better left to a dealer or tech. So that approach might be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

I'd encourage you to talk to any dealers or techs in your area and see what turns up. There should be something out there that will be a vast improvement over some old 1950's home organ!

[Hamman]

After the newness wears off, is this said new organ going to be the main focal point of instrumentation or just a added instrument to the now established instruments?

[Moller Artiste]

Because we don't know your location, it's not easy to make suggestions that may work for you. However, there is an Allen MDS-51S listed on ebay for $15,000. I feel the price is a bit high, however, I sold that organ to the church in Lancaster, KY when I was an Allen rep. It may be worth trying to negotiate with the church if you are within a reasonable distance to Kentucky. Good luck with your search. Here is the link:

http://www.--------/itm/BEAUTIFUL-19...item2a1af68a68

[nobodyyouknow]

Thanks so much for the replies so far.

We're in northeast Florida. I'd be willing to work with any dealers / techs who could help us find or install a late model used organ. Sounds like a good option. I'd hate to stretch and scrape to spend 15k on an entry level organ that will only be worth maybe 4k in 10 years. That's quite a steep drop.

If a 10-15 year old nicer organ can be had and installed for 15k, that'd be great. Only thing is, we don't want to spend all that money and end up with a lemon. Or end up fixing it all the time. That's why we were leaning towards new. How reliable is a used organ? What is considered new enough to not be needing regular maintenance/repairs? Also, a new organ salesman told me the $15k new organs are just as nice as the $50k 10 year old organs because of newer tech. Is that true?

To the question of focal point: the organ and the piano will be the main driving instruments of our congregational singing.

[jbird604]

My company is in Arkansas and we couldn't do an install that far away, but I'll offer a little food for thought. I certainly don't want to discourage you from buying a new organ if you can find what you're looking for at the right price. As I said above, there are low-price builders that have pretty full-featured models at $15K-$20K. I helped a friend look at Viscount just last year and discovered that there are some incredibly good-sounding instruments in that range.

But premium builders offer rather scanty stoplists and very limited audio when you get down to that price range. Even though Allen and Rodgers are rightly held in high esteem for their excellence in both sound and build quality, you may find that other companies will beat them out in both areas in that price range.

As to the question of new vs. used ... It depends on what you can find at any given time. A 20-year-old Allen MDS or Rodgers PDI that cost $50K back in the 90's (comparable to something selling for $80K or more today) can sometimes be found on ebay for $10K or less. (Occasionally I even get one for free, but that would be something like the lightning-damaged Rodgers 945 I was recently given which has turned out to need more work than I expected.) Whatever you pay for one of these, it may well need some degree of repair. Organs of that age will have foam-surround drivers in the speaker cabinets which will need replacing. Some will have power supply problems, aging filter caps, possibly some key contact or stop control issues. It's impossible to generalize because some will be in mint condition while others may be almost used up, depending upon what kind of usage and care a given organ has had.

If you find one in good condition and have it fully renovated by a competent tech, then get it properly installed and carefully set up and voiced by a dealer or tech who understands these older systems, you may wind up with a real masterpiece of an organ. You can have a setup with 6 - 10 channels or maybe even more, instead of only two or three in a typical new organ in that price range. The technology of digital sampling was certainly well-developed 20 years ago (even 30 years ago for an Allen) so that you'll hear very authentic organ sounds from a used one, hardly distinguishable from the latest thing in terms of the standard organ voices.

So, if you're willing to do the searching and have the help of a very dedicated and competent tech you can get a superb organ for under $20K by going for a used Allen or Rodgers. But absent the right kind of help, you may be better off to look at new organs.

I hope that helps a little. Wish I were closer and I'd certainly want to talk to you about one of our used ones. Best of luck!

[Jim63801]

Depending upon the acoustics of your building, the new Allen may be your best choice. I have played the smaller Allen's in acoustically live sanctuaries with satisfactory results. The one thing you want to take into account, especially if you are buying used, is the availability of parts. Again, Allen is by far the best for keeping an inventory of parts that is sufficient to service that which they have in the field. They can still manufacture any part for any organ that they have built.

I would not buy anything that was not an Allen or Rodgers. You can get a good used Allen ADC or MDS series organ within the price range. With Allen you will have the guarantee of being able to obtain factory parts for any of their models.

I would not buy anything that has been struck by lightning even if it has been "rebuilt". Unless the organ is stripped of ALL of its electronics and all of them replaced, there is a good possibility that there will be hidden damage that will suddenly appear and for no reason.

Allen is celebrating their 40th year of the digital sampled organ. They were sampling organs twenty years prior to Rodgers. I have been playing Allens since 1978. I have always gotten good, efficient service.

Jim

[Menschenstimme]

This is from elsewhere on this Forum:

"A nice Allen ADC-6300DK in medium oak just showed up on eBay. An ADC-5400 and an MDS-51S are also currently listed. I do not recall seeing such a good selection in months."

I have also seen the actual eBay link to the Allen MDS-51-S posted on this Forum; but I regret that I am unable to find it now.

[Clarion]

Hello!

I have been tasked with purchasing a new organ for our church. We have an organ player who is not really an organist but rather a pianist, but he plays well for our modest needs. We sing traditional hymns only, nothing contemporary or praise and worship at all. We'd like something with that rich, full, traditional organ sound.

This organ would be the perfect fit for the objective you have described:

http://phoenixorganssouth.com/PDF2007/Tab_PT_219.pdf

This is a very well balanced organ, containing ALL of the essentials required for a very good church organ.

The closest dealer would be in Alabama:

http://phoenixorganssouth.com/

A couple of similar installations are featured at:
http://phoenixorgans.com/installatio...nstallation=15

Phoenix organs are quite capable of producing big pipe organ sound, even on installations of modest specifications. Phoenix organs are all custom made for the environment they will be installed; and associated sound systems will be custom crafted for their intended installation.

I've looked at Allen and Rogers. I've been told to stay away from Hammond because that's not our sound. Is that true?

Indeed! The Hammond-Suzuki Organs are characterized by a horrible ghastly sound associated with primitive frequency-divider "technology" of the 1950s!!

As for Allen and Rodgers, when it comes to low budget offerings, their off-the-shelf offerrings are somewhat less than impressive in terms of quality and price.

Phoenix can easily beat out either, in terms of price, quality, and flexibility.

If you were in my position, what would you look for? A few more details:

- Church holds about 250-300 people
- Organ is used for congregational hymn singing and a few specials here and there, played along with a piano and a few horns/strings
- We'd like something that will last a while without much maintenance.

The size of the church is not all that important, since sound systems are custom crafted for the environment.

New organs these days, typically carry a ten year warranty.

[jbird604]

In my earlier remarks I suggested that only the lower-cost brands such as Viscount had much to offer under $20K. I was forgetting about the Rodgers/Roland C-330 model that a lot of people are raving about. That is one example of a quite good model from a major builder that should be within your church's reach. With a church of 250 people or more, you would definitely need quite a bit of audio to go with a C-330 (or anything else) so be sure to price it with plenty of amp power and sufficient speakers.

Buying a new organ from a major builder does indeed bring a lot of advantages, such as the typical 10-year warranty, very quick parts availability from a USA factory, large dealer and technical network. Parts availability and tech support from both the factory and the tech network are very good reasons as well to consider a used Rodgers or Allen over a new organ that lacks local support. But that situation varies greatly from place to place and you will need to check out the level of tech support in your own area for whatever organ you are looking at.

[don60]

This is from elsewhere on this Forum:

"A nice Allen ADC-6300DK in medium oak just showed up on eBay. An ADC-5400 and an MDS-51S are also currently listed. I do not recall seeing such a good selection in months."

I have also seen the actual eBay link to the Allen MDS-51-S posted on this Forum; but I regret that I am unable to find it now.

Both are still on eBay as of Thursday morning--search "Allen Organ" and they will show up in the first page of hits.

The MDS-51S is sitting at $15,000 with no bids. The ADC-6300DK has three bids; the winning bid is $3050 at the moment but the reserve has not been met. Considering the reported condition of the instrument and the full speaker complement, I am guessing that the seller (if he knows the market) has placed a $4500 to $5000 reserve on it.

The 6300, as John has pointed out numerous times, is part of the last and best series of ADCs that previewed the follow-up MDS technology. They have more randomness (due to a separate wind generator), better articulation, and at least an elementary built-in MIDI. There is scarcely a reason to consider a comparably-equipped MDS model for three times the price unless you want a little more compact console or a full MIDI with encoding and decoding of stops, expression, and notes.

Nobody, in your position I would try to jump on the 6300 and enter a bid of at least $5000 at the last moment. If you are "meant" to have it, you will win. Even if the organ has minor issues, an Allen tech with factory parts can make it right for a reasonable price, and you will have an incredibly well-built, well-supported organ than can compete nicely with new ones costing $30-40,000. The stop list appears to have everything that you would need to support a congregation of two to three hundred, and it is very similar to that of the MDS. To be fair, the latter in addition to full MIDI does have some second and third voicing capability, not something that would excite me too much but possibly a worthwhile addition for some organists. It's really a matter of taste which of the two organs you would prefer; I cannot imagine going wrong with either.

Good luck with your decision. Let us know what happens.

Don

[robmcginn]

Hi
I think the MDS 51 S is a tad expensive. the ADC 6300 appears to have midi which would be an advantage. I have no idea if it is full midi capability but the ADC organs did not have it as a rule. I guess it has been added?

[don60]

Hi
I think the MDS 51 S is a tad expensive. the ADC 6300 appears to have midi which would be an advantage. I have no idea if it is full midi capability but the ADC organs did not have it as a rule. I guess it has been added?

At least one person does not believe the MDS 51S is too expensive--it now has a bid! I'm happy to see some life in the used Allen market for a change.

The x3xx ADC organs came with MIDI installed at the factory; it was implemented using the same board that is available separately for earlier ADC models. This implementation is quite elementary: There is no encoding (sending) or decoding (receiving) of stop or expression data. Both encoding and decoding of notes is implemented, but a quirk in the architecture causes the console-mounted transposer to affect encoding (i.e., sending of MIDI signals to an external sound generator such as Hauptwerk) but not decoding (i.e., using an external MIDI device to play notes with the built-in tone generators).

As I remarked above, one of the major differences between the early MDS organs and the late ADC organs is that the former have a full MIDI implementation. If having full MIDI is important, nothing but an MDS or later will do as no one has marketed an add-on for the ADCs. OTOH, if one is on a budget and is content to use the MIDI just to activate a sound module, the x3xx ADCs are going to sound almost as good and be priced, typically, much lower.

Don

[nobodyyouknow]

Thanks to everyone who answered so far. It has been extremely helpful to talk to impartial organ experts. So far everyone I'm calling tells me that the very best solution for us happens to be the brand they sell. So it's tough to know the real deal.

I've narrowed it down to a few options:

1. A new roland/rodgers c-380 with a large roland external speaker.

2. A new Allen chapel series with 2 smaller external speakers.

3. A bigger but used allen model, less than 10-12 years old, like the couple that are currently on ebay.

All of these options will cost around $15k, and it looks like they'll all work for us. So last question. When faced with the above options, which would you go with?

Thanks!

[Kurzweil]

If I recall the original post, your musician is barely an organist; described as a pianist playing an organ. This implies that he is NOT playing any classical organ works or sacred music solo arrangements; just hymn accompaniments? If this is true, why buy such comprehensive instruments as your short list? Yamaha, Technics, and Roland made a lot of smaller instruments from the mid nineties forward that have good pipe organ sounds. Even a Technics GA-1 did well in that area, as does the Yamaha AR-80. These organs have 49 note (four octave) keyboards and 13 to 20 pedals. There is little in hymn playing that could not be done effectively on no more capacity than that. The older Roland Ateliers have excellent pipe sounds also. The main drawback is preset registration with most of the Rolands. You would still need tone cabinets but even the older (and bulkier) PA cabinets can do a very respectable job and are not expensive. Two cabinets and a power amp could be had for not much more than $500 and the mentioned organs can be found for under a thousand for the first two and probably a couple of grand for the Ateliers. But a Yamaha AR-80 or AR-100 should do fine. All of these organs have at least 8 changeable pistons with the ability to store multiple set-ups on disk. They are, none of them, full consoles, and don't even come close to AGO but I've played in many churches and heard many others do so, and few have the ability to appreciate the difference. Just another take on the original question.

To not ignore your final question: Since the organist is not looking for a sophisticated or comprehensive instrument, I would probably go for new vs. old. And the Allens had only a half dozen or so pistons. I absolutely LOVE presets once the service starts and the Roland appears to be loaded with'em. So if $15K is to be spent, I'd look at the Roland C-380. My personal favorite, and my situation is totally different from traditional service playing, is the Roland Ateliers. I need far more than organ sounds in my music.