Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Best Choice for Small Church?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    ONe more question: it seems from my limited research that the gap is quickly closing between keyboards and organs. That is, new organs have midi sounds that are basically exactly the same as the ones keyboards can load.

    Every time I ask a dealer what the difference is, they tell me the traditional organ is better built, its a grand piece of furniture, it has a warranty, it "sounds better." But I can't, for the life of me, understand how a $30k Allan could possibly sound better than a $5k keyboard, if they are using the same loaded sounds, playing through the same speakers.

    We don't really need to spend a lot of money just for furniture. Should we be looking for a cheaper console and load up some great sounds, plugged up to some nice speakers? Would we get the same exact sound for a fraction of the cost?

    Comment


    • #17
      I cannot believe that the keyboard and organ are using the same electronic hardware and, especially, the same sample set. The sound will NOT be the same.

      A small organ might have 30 voices; each of these represents 30 samples times 61 notes, or 1,830 different samples. A keyboard doesn't typically have that much sampling into their organ sounds; typically they would do a sample of a composite sound, which doesn't have the resolution and detail that the organ would provide. The result is greater clarity.

      Additionally, the organ has 2 manuals, minimum, and a pedalboard. The voices are activated by organ-type switches (stops, drawknobs, etc.). All of this amounts to a significant cost in the physical parts alone.

      The sound systems provided for organs provide full range (32 Hz to 16kHz minimum) with smooth response, high power, and good dispersion. Keyboards do not inherently have sound systems appropriate to the job. The external speakers for organs are in the $1,000 range, and 2 or more are used. The amps are high powered, and ultra-reliable.

      Most keyboards are consumer grade electronics; organs (at least in the Allen/Phoenix type products) are built to an industrial grade, and parts are available from the manufacturer for the life of the product, typically up to 50 years. The quality of the design and components is much better in organs.

      Where keyboards have the cost advantage (apart from mechanical devices), is they sell in high volume, allowing for very low cost manufacturing. Organs are much lower volume, so that part adds to their cost, too.

      So, in essence, a keyboard is not the equivalent of an organ, won't last as long, won't provide the same quality, and can't be played like an organ.

      If you have a decent quality organ, you may find it attracts a good organist to the church. If you have a keyboard, no organist would want to play for your church.

      My best recommendation is a late model used organ--it provides the best value, and the sound since the late 1980's has only improved incrementally. Phoenix, however, may be able to provide an instrument for similar prices, so I would contact them as well.

      Toodles

      Comment


      • #18
        VERY perceptive. Most keyboard instruments use PCM sampled sounds. All the instruments I described do and I believe that all the ones in your short list do also. A couple organs use a synthesis technique but the differences are subtle for most ears, mine included. The beauty of a traditional organ console is its versatility. All of the sounds, the sets of "pipes" as it were, are right there in front of you on individual switches of some sort, one per pipe set. Keyboards and also the spinet organs I recommended take a preset approach, where the manufacturer picks a few popular combinations, sets them up, samples them, and puts them on the keyboard under the names "pipe organ 1" and "pipe organ 2". Organs like the Atelier give you six or seven such combinations on each keyboard and you can combine up to three of them. In my opinion, this is all that is needed. Kurzweil makes a keyboard called the PC3 which can be had in 61 or 76 note versions (for non-weighted keys). Kurzweil has gone to considerable effort to make most of the well known pipe organ stops available as what they call "key-maps". Those keyboards can be bought new for around two grand. It can be split into two or more zones, or a second keyboard (or pedals for that matter) can be attached to it, to play different sounds, giving you a two manual organ. A piano oriented organist might enjoy playing the "pedal" on the low end of the keyboard. The sound would definitely be comparable to most any modern digital organ, including all those on your short list. You would still get a warrantee.

        The price of organs and keyboards have a lot to do with the market. You can buy what is called a "Hammond clone" all day for a bit over or under two grand. Most of the keyboard makers, including Korg, Nord, Roland, and even Hammond themselves make one. You get a single manual with most of the functionality of an old style Hammond organ which is quite the choice for most anything except what YOU happen to require. My point is that a genuine Hammond in the traditional console costs over $10,000. Just adding a lower manual to the single keyboard version is $1500, nevermind that the brains of the thing is only seven hundred more. My point is that when you go to that traditional cabinet, you move from amateur musician, mostly young people that have limited funds, to professional use - entertainers and churches with much more money to spend, and the budget can go up by a factor of ten. The increase in value does NOT move up proportionally. Plus these church organs are sold in a high cost environment. Few units sold per month vs. Guitar Center with a steady stream of sales all day long.

        My personal favorite, the Roland Atelier, sells for around $40,000 new. Yet a six to ten year old model can be had for less than a tenth of that figure. Right up there with luxury cars in terms of depreciation. And as wonderful as the AT-900 is (the current series), there is not anywhere near forty K worth of electronics and woodwork contained therein.

        Incidentally, if one wanted something a bit "churchier" looking than a couple of keyboards, your old organ, or maybe a larger one of low value (Craigslilst has dozens) could be gutted and one or more keyboards fitted into the desk area. I've seen it done a number of times where an 88 note weighted keyboard is fitted into the carcase of a grand piano. An old Baldwin model five has a gorgeous wood case and a value of about $100. Might have some usable tone cabinets too. That sort of thing is the luck of the draw, namely what is available when you begin looking.

        In brief, I think you are wise to at least consider the keyboard route. Also please consider the spinet organ possibility. Both have the potential of coming in at a tenth of your budget. Can your sound system handle an organ? Most recommend against it and I believe it comes down to how loud you want it to be vs. the singing. If there are voices in the sound system already and the organ is to blend with them, it can work. If the organ needs to be the loudest thing in the room, probably not. I believe that you mentioned being in Florida. There is a dealer in the Sears store in an Ocala mall that had a rather nice AT-90r (25 pedals with 76 note lower and a 56 note upper manual) that is probably around two grand and would have the sound you're looking for. It can also double nicely as a digital piano/keyboard. I often play piano and organ simultaneously. The sound system built into the organ is over 200 watts, which is a good start. His name is Mark Beauvier, or something to that effect. He offered the organ to me but I'm really trying to be content with the four I already have. I won't say more about what are clearly "home organs" on the church organ thread but write me if you want to know more about the ones I've mentioned on this thread.
        Roland Atelier AT-90s, AT-80s, AT-70, 30, and 15. Roland VR-760 combo
        Yamaha S-90, Kurzweil PC-3x, Casio Privia PX-330, Roland E-80, G-70, BK-5, Leslie 760, 820
        Moved on:
        Allen 3MT/Hauptwerk, Technics GA1, Yamaha HX1, AR80, numerous Hammonds, including 2 M's, an L, 2 A-100's, XP-2, XM-1/1c, & an XK-3. Roland Atelier AT-30, 60r, 80, & 20r(2 units), and a slew of Leslies (147, 142, 760, 900, 330).
        Korg Triton Le-61, Casio Privia PX-310 & 110, and Kurzweils: PC-2x, SP-88, Pro-III, K1000

        Comment


        • #19
          It really comes down to where you want the music program of your church to go. Your church sings traditional hymns and is not headed toward a contemporary worship style, so you probably want an organ that sounds basically like a pipe organ. You probably have little interest in MIDI capabilities, and probably don't need orchestral or other non-organ sounds, especially since you have actual orchestral instruments playing along with the organ. You don't need automatic rhythm or one-finger chords or preset musical styles. You need a digital organ that is the closest possible simulation of a pipe organ that you can afford.

          And that is what the premium digital church organs excel at, and, just as importantly, they strive to present the same interface (i.e. keyboards, stop controls, pistons, pedals, etc.) that a pipe organ player is familiar with. So, if you aspire to having a qualified organist and hearing pipe-like sounds, you should be looking at buying some kind of new or fairly modern digital church organ from a standard builder, whether Allen, Rodgers, Phoenix, Viscount, etc. I too have made do with a home or entertainment-type organ in church, and a creative player can get some nice churchy tones out of one. But it's so much easier with a real church organ!

          Not to discount the excellent organ-like sounds to be had on a good Kurzweil, Roland, Yamaha, or other keyboard, but regardless of how good they may sound, most classically-trained organists are unwilling to give up a real organ for a keyboard because it lacks that familiar interface -- the rows of stoptabs or drawknobs that allow an almost infinite mix of tone colors, the individual keyboards for each tone color, the familiar layout of general and divisional pistons, the very comfortable and easy to play AGO pedalboard.

          If your current player is just a pianist learning the organ, he or she should be, I hope, striving constantly to improve his playing skills, getting more familiar with the standard organ interface, not looking for a way around it. So, if you desire for your church's music to continue in the direction of quality traditional fare, you'll need an organ that encourages it.

          I understand the need to be frugal. I'm the king of it actually, having gotten a string of "free" organs for my own church in recent years, each one thankfully a little better than the last. But I'm a technician and in the organ business, so I know what to look for and how to fix one up if it has problems. You should not be so constrained by money that you wind up with something that will give you continual trouble or something that is unsuitable for the type of music you want.

          So, I think $15K is a perfectly reasonable expenditure for what you need. And any of the choices you listed would probably work out well. I'd lean toward recommending a new organ for your situation unless you have a dealer or tech in your area who does what my partner and I do, which is to refurbish quality premium organs and sell them for about what you'd pay for the cheapest new ones.

          Please post your continuing thoughts and let us all know what happens.
          John
          ----------
          *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi there, new member here. I am interested in buying a used Rodgers or Allen for home use. This question may be better posted elsewhere on the forum but there seems to be some good discussion around the market for the used Allen organs on eBay. It looks like the MDS-51S auction ended without a bid, with the reserve not met for the ADC-6300. What is a fair price for these instruments? Seems like one poster mentioned around $5k for the ADC, would that place the MDS in the $7.5k to $10k range? Thanks.

            Comment


            • #21
              The ADC-6300DK will be ending in about six hours, so the market will give you a good idea of a fair price. Despite the drawback (minor, to me) of not having full MIDI, it is probably worth $6000 to $7000 in fine condition since it comes with the necessary speakers. In comparing it with some of the new organs mentioned above, remember that the older Allens have well-built consoles, Allen (i.e., top-quality) keyboards, and real moving stop tabs and knobs. Most newer organs in the 10k range have lit rocker tabs and cheap keyboards. Consoles--well, they would make Ikea proud!

              I did not find the MDS-51S to be overpriced at $15k. The stoplist was not my cup of tea--it was missing a few stops that I always look for in a well-appointed organ. But the MDS organs rarely come up for sale because they are still in daily use by their (mostly) original owners, and they are going to sell a bit high. With full MIDI and a sound (many say) comparable to the later Renaissance organs, they are wonderful instruments for someone feeding a little higher on the food chain.

              Don

              Comment


              • #22
                For once, I feel like a genius. The ADC-6300DK just sold for $6350!

                Don

                Comment


                • #23
                  That's a lot of organ for the money, Don. I think the ADC6000 I sold to a church in the mid-80's was around $60K retail way back then. The 6300 came along 2 or 3 years later and probably sold for close to $70K new! Somebody got one awesome organ for a pittance.

                  I sure hope it will get properly set up and voiced, wherever it's going. With stops divided into so many separate groups one can really have an unbalanced sound if they are not properly adjusted.
                  John
                  ----------
                  *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    What about the rodgers at the bottom of this page?

                    http://www.whiteselmusic.com/#!barga...ckergallery3=3

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hi Nobody,

                      This organ advert tells me very little. I would dig a little deeper here if you are interested.

                      This appears to be either a Rodgers Allegiant 677 or an Insignia 577. They were pretty much the same organ, except that the Allegiant was made in the US, so it was better built, and also they could be interfaced with pipes. I believe also the internal audio on the Allegiant.

                      Regarding the age of the instrument, get the serial Number and contact Rodgers, or a Rodgers dealer as to the build year. These organs were built from as early as 2001 or 2002, and so could be much older than advertised.

                      Also, no mention of external audio. Not likely part of the equation. These organs can have as many as 4 external audio channels (2 for Swell, and 2 for Great/Pedal). Since you are looking for a mid sized church, get as much external audio as you can get.

                      If the organ is an Insignia, I would say the price is high, if it is an Alligiant, closer to realistic price. Also, figure on costs of moving the instrument from Virginia to Florida. If external audio is not part of the package, get a costing of amps and speakers plus installation of them.

                      I know someone in central Florida who deals in organs, and may have something for you. If interested PM me.

                      AV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        How about this?

                        http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/msg/2910184900.html

                        A hard to find ADC Classic II Custom, drawknob console with the 2 manuals at $5k with 14 speaker cabinets. One less manual than that ADC6300 but you save $1300 - not including what you might be able to haggle off.

                        Its got a good speaker complement. But apart from perhaps some cabinetry differences, how exactly does it differ from a standard ADC of a similar size making it a "Classic II Custom"?

                        1971 Allen Organ TC-3S (#42904) w/sequential capture system.
                        Speakers: x1 Model 100 Gyro, x1 Model 105 & x3 Model 108.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Nullogik,

                          These Classic series organs from Allen, used what were known as TT-4 boards. Much more sample data, more articulation, wind effects etc. compared to the standard fare Allen models of the time. I don't know whether this organ had 7 channels with 2 speakers per channel, or whether this one has a full 14 channels. Typical Classic series had 7 channels.

                          These organs were done in the classical/baroque voicing style. Quite unlike what Allen typically did. In some ways they were the forerunners of the MDS series organs. The person behind these organs was Lawrence Phelps, a well known figure in the pipe organ world, a promoter of the neo-baroque style of voicing.

                          Allen did not build many of them. They also were perhaps not as reliable as the standard models. In any case, a number of them have been thrown out already.

                          I would say they were more pipelike sounding than a regular Allen as the amount of hardware to generate tone was much more extensive, and also more audio channels used than what Allen normally used.

                          AV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            OK, here's one more. Very close to us, but I have no idea about this organ:

                            http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/col/msg/2890546303.html

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Heres a link on forum which could pertain to you if you indeed consider the mds-5....just a fyi on additional costs involved
                              http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...thout-speakers

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                OK, I think I've made a decision on what to present to the board.

                                New Allen Chapel Series CF-2a, with HR200 speakers. Whole thing, out the door, is $15,000.

                                Any last minute advice? Thoughts?

                                Comment

                                Hello!

                                Collapse

                                Looks like you’re enjoying the discussion, but you haven’t signed up for an account yet.

                                Tired of scrolling through the same posts? When you create an account you’ll always come back to where you left off. With an account you can also post messages, be notified of new replies, join groups, send private messages to other members, and use likes to thank others. We can all work together to make this community great. ♥️

                                Sign Up

                                Working...
                                X