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  • Ultimate organ speaker system for around $1000?

    I recently bought a 1970's Rodgers 750. It's a good enough organ. Not great, but good. I was talked out of using the 35 year old amps and speakers that came with it as the sound would not have been ideal.

    I own a pair of ten year old JBL EON 15" powered speakers which I thought would be perfect. I used them back when I did seminars and they could easily fill a 300 seat conference room with pump-up music. No luck with my organ, though.



    I don't know if it's the age of these speakers or the design, but in the quiet of my living room, they make a constant FFFFFFFFFFFF wind/static noise - even at a low volume. You would never hear it in a venue, but sitting six feet away from them in a quiet home, it's enough noise to make two hours of practice unsatisfying. I know I could get an EQ and clip off the high end and probably quiet them down, but I really don't want to clutter my living room with more gear.

    My Rodgers can do stereo, four outputs, or five outputs (four plus a carillon jack, I believe). So I'm looking at two to five speakers, depending on cost. Let's just say we're starting out with stereo.

    Assuming a guy wants to hear his bass pedals as clearly as his highs ... and assuming a guy wants his speakers to be dead silent in between the notes ... what speakers are ideal for use with an organ? A thousand bucks ... a little more or a little less.

  • #2
    Hi Neumie,
    Did you even try the Rodgers speaker set up? When I acquired my organ none of the amps/speakers were hooked up. Wires cut etc.etc.. The speakers, however, were safe and sound up in the front attic of the church were the amps were too, laying on the ground. A butt load of cabinets with 12 6x9's in them and a JBL bullet tweeter a top of 4 of them. I too wondered about all those 6x9's being 35+ years old. All of them looked good physically but I was thinking old school center dash AM radio sound. Instead I was pleasantly surprised at the full range output and even had to remove the tweeters since it they were way too brite.....even attenuated all the way down. The subwoofer is a dual 15 and I had to replace the drivers in that cab since someone had replaced them and put the wrong type back in. I'm almost down dialing everything in on the stop voices (thumbwheel pots) and it sounds great! Love the old analog sound! I'll probably insert some 31 band EQ's to lightly "color" it.....or not depending if it is already at its best. The drawback is the size of the speaker cabinets especially if this organ is going to find a permanent spot in the house (its in the garage now). You stated that you may run yours stereo? Also are you looking for powered speakers or will you be using seperate amps?
    Hamman

    Comment


    • #3
      Generally, you won't ever get "dead quiet" from an analog Rodgers when you are not playing any notes. Rodgers used diode and transistor keyers which were fed by continuously running oscillators. These keyers leaked sound when off, and they leaked more high frequency than low frequency, the result is a "beehive" sound. That's probably what you are hearing.

      Different speakers and amps won't resolve the problem, though cutting back on highs helps some. There might be "air sound" adjustments that need tweaking to prevent feed through of white noise, but with these Rodgers organs it's always there to some degree. Moving speakers as far as possible from the console helps mask the sound.

      To get rid of the hiss completely, you need a different organ: Allen analog organs keyed the oscillators, so they did not run and produce tone until the key was pressed, the result is dead quiet when no keys are depressed.

      Digital organs are also quiet without keys being depressed.

      Toodles.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Hamman,

        I had to laugh at your story because all of that, down to the details, is exactly what I've been through. Had to haul the speakers and the 2x15 subwoofer down from a church attic ... just cut the wires off at the walls ... etc. They're all sitting in the garage right now, just like yours!

        I made room for the organ in the house, I could possibly set up two (of the twelve) speakers in the house if I wanted. Forget about a 2x15 subwoofer. No room in the inn.

        No, I haven't set the old speakers and amps up myself. I just read another post elsewhere where a guy was in my (our) exact situation at one time and he says he wasted his time setting everything up because the sound was mushy and uninspiring. He ended up trashing all his old amps and speakers and bought some new powered speakers to use with his Rodgers. I suppose I could do all the same testing myself, but I'm taking the guy's word for it that 35 year old speakers couldn't possibly be that clean ... or quiet.

        Could they?

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Toodles,

          Thanks for the reply. Note that my air hiss is present whether or not the organ is connected. If the organ makes noise, I can't hear it under the hiss. So I'm still blaming these JBLs first for being noisy speakers, not the organ. (Although a pair of dead quiet speakers might show me how noisy the organ is and then I'm right back to square one!)

          Comment


          • #6
            I wonder if anyone can tell me if any 12" speaker can be used with an organ - or if organs need a special caliber of speaker. (I know nothing about speaker technology.) I have two Kenwood four-way home stereo speakers that are dead silent and plenty loud. But I have this prejudice that "home stereo" speakers, even with 12" woofers, would be damaged much more easily than with my JBL event speakers. Is that a false belief? Man, the sound of the pedals with all the stops out sounds like it would disintegrate a lesser speaker. The JBLs handle it readily, albeit with the ever-present hiss.

            I'd hook my organ up to my home stereo, but I really love these speakers for my CDs and don't want to risk damaging them.

            Comment


            • #7
              The way to determine whether the hiss is coming from your organ, or you speakers, is set the speaker level for proper volume. Then disconnect the organ and build an input connector for the speakers with a short across it. (this can be a clip lead). Then turn on the speakers without adjusting the volume. The noise you hear is just the speaker and internal amp, not the organ.
              I wonder if your organ in un-restored condition is producing enough bass and mid range. My H100 was quite tinny until I replaced 71 electrolytic capacitors. I see from the previous thread about the rogers amps that Arie and Geo don't believe in replacing capacitors that haven't totally failed. If the tech that serviced this organ followed the same practice, the sound of the organ may be quite far from original. Whether the bass or treble is dominant depends on the details of the design. The same concept applies to the original Rogers amps. Bass speakers take more sustained energy than treble, so unrestored amps will produce too much treble and not enough bass. I saw you decided not to restore the original amps. As a not-working person, I find that replacing $.06 to $6 capacitors produces better music than buying other used equipment on e-bay. I have a 1961 dynakit tube hifi that is dead silent and produces the designed 35 watts/channel. I have a 1968 hammond organ that is quite loud with about 55 watts, but the electronics noise is lower than the whirr of the motor. For my hifi system, the Peavey CS800s amp running the SP2XT speakers produces negligible noise at normal volume setting when driven by the 1961 dynakit PAS2 preamp. I have reworked a 1990 disco mixer to drive the CS800s get the hiss lower at 1' than the pilot light on my room heater. The parts change for upgrading the disco mixer was about $20. I've achieved performance equivalent to my ear on the disco mixer to preamps costing about $1000 assembled. In your case since you are not using a low level magnetic phono cartridge, you wouldn't need a mixer to boost the signal to the CS800s. You may need a mixer to mix the 4 or 5 channels of the rogers to get 2 listenable channels. Unfortunately, commercial PA mixers in the $500 range do not have the quality of parts I put into my disco mixer. Although the Peavey unity 12 mixer I own has socketed components so it could be upgraded. (resistors also need to be unsoldered and upgraded).
              People have told me that the Peavey SP2XT with its 15" woofer and 53 hz roll off point is not suitable for organ work. It is the best I have ever owned for organ records, but the number look better for a SP4 system with two 15' woofers per channel. Or you could go to a subwoofer system with 3 amp channels, but this requires setup to balance the channels properly and time align the system.
              city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the reply IndianaJo. The hiss is definitely from the speakers. It makes the hiss even with the audio inputs unplugged.

                I wish I understood more about what you said about the Peavey's not being suitable for organ work. I've read a couple of recommendations for speakers, but have no understanding what makes a speaker good for "organ" specifically. I'm imagining right now using one of my JBL's for the bass, and then getting some smaller speakers for the higher range. But that's just because I assume a 15" JBL can handle anything. I don't know squat beyond that. Is there anything about organ high-range that can damage speakers in a way that high-range on a bombastic organ CD can't? Is it just the woofer that's at risk from the hard vibration? (Assuming you don't overload the wattage.)

                Very confusing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Organ sounds go from about 30 hz to 7000 hz. That is if the organ has a 32' pedal stop. My hammond has only a 16' pedal stop which is I guess about 50 hz or so. The lowest piano note is supposed to be 40 hz. My Peavey SP2 speakers with the 15" woofers are 3 db down from "flat" at 53 hz. That means that when I play organ records on my hifi, the lowest notes are not as impressive as live. Having heard a serious organ pedal at St Boniface in Louisville, I will attest to that. That organ will jiggle yore Innards, to quote Mountain Dew. Compared to the more modest pipe organs in Southern Indiana, my Peavey speakers sound quite realistic. Note that consumer speakers, like your 12" typically do not even quote a 3 db frequency point. JBL has a consumer line and a pro line, with different websites. I believe the specs on their consumer line are quite optimistic with bass response on speaker with a 10" woofer. Thus, such consumer specs might be 10 db frequency points. Consumer speakers dropped the excessive specifications back in the seventies, and sell more on the number of drivers now than any sort of accuracy spec. I own a set of speaker with dual 10" woofers, which I find to be inadaquate to even properly reproduce piano bass. Listen around and see what you think. I use piano CD's for speaker testing, as I have a good idea of what a Steinway grand is supposed to sound like.
                  Pro PA speakers have two different power ratings. There is a program power rating, which includes spread spectrum music. Then there is an RMS rating, which could conceivably be all at one frequency. My SP2XT speakers, which look a lot like your JBL speakers and are copied from the old Altec Lansing design, have a program rating of 600 W, and an RMS rating of 300W. Presumably, if your amp won't put out this much, these speakers won't blow up.
                  Organs do not put out significant high frequencies compared to other types of music, so I would not expect an organ source to blow a lot of tweeters. That is, unless the organ puts out supersonic oscillations (which is electronically possible) or unless the organ produces loud pops as a result of switching transients or lightning. I've lost 2 irreplacable tweeters in consumer speakers over the years with the 35 w/ch dynakit ST70 as the source, so something blows them up, and the ST70 is not known to oscillate.
                  I would find your double 15" subwoofer that you have in the garage to be terribly tempting as an adder to organ sound system. I learned a lot about the "6 channel" malarky that the rogers/allen/johnansen people are all so gaga over on the chuch organ threads. Your Rogers organ amps are only about 240 watts. So there were 5 or 6 240 watt channels in that church. 1000 watts is about what it takes to impress an audience of 300 with moderate levels of sound. So instead of having 3 channels at 600 watts apiece the way rock/pop sound systems are set up, the pro organ people have 5-6 channels at 240 w apiece. Each category of stops added increases the level of sound, just like a pipe organ. Also, having the 5 or six speakers spreads the different stops physically around the room giving different reflection paths for each stop. These are reality increasing measures in a large room like a life stone church. The 5 or 6 channels, in my opinion, provide no advantage in a living room. Your living rooom at most has one long dimension for ambience, with nothing like the significant length of a church to provide suitable echoes. Still, you need to hear the 5 channels to get full use of your Rogers. That is why I suggested a mixer.
                  While JBL and Yamaha certainly make suitable pro sound gear, I have learned a lot about sound by reading the Peavey specification sheets. They are available on peavey.com product support, then click alphabetic, then look for the system you are looking at. The SP2 (2004) and SP2-XT spec sheets are particularly useful, as is the CS800s amp sheet.
                  On the subject of blowing up speakers, the most common thing in rock/pop setups is for the wiring to get shorted, causing the transistors to overheat, which produce unrestricted DC voltage from the power supply on the speaker and destroys the speaker. The Peavey CS800s has 3 levels of detection for this problem, and a relay to disconnect the speaker from the amp. Some Crowns and Yamaha amps have similar speaker protection. Organ installations tend to have permanent wiring, so this is less of a problem, but may be with a new house installation. That is why a CS600s is now $999 retail, whereas similarly powered amps are available for $229.
                  Incidently, I bought my current hifi setup from a bar band leaving the road due to disagreements. I got 2 SP2Xt speakers (which I had heard in the store and really wanted), the CS800s amp, a 12 input unity mixer, a graphic equalizer, a digitech effect unit, 2 speaker stands (poles) and a 100' mixer cable for $1000. The amp had small issues, as does the mixer, and I haven't tested the equalizer or effect unit yet. As they are all 1998 vintage, they are all due for a complete recap, the amp especially as it has started blowing the breaker at turnon. So I view your collection of rogers gear as a qualified benefit, however you need to find the right service to upgrade them with new e-caps. Have you considered finding a shop to quote on re-e-capping them in their shop after you ship them to them? Actual organ repairmen have high costs of running a car etc and don't seem to be attuned to the idea of re-e-capping and connector cleans at all. Whereas Enzo who runs a Peavey/Behringer amp repair shop in Michigan, said he replaces every E-cap on any amp he works on out of warrenty.
                  Last edited by indianajo; 03-16-2012, 08:05 PM.
                  city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A 16' stop has as its lowest fundamental a 32.7Hz tone and a 32' stop goes down to 16.3Hz. Pedal tones at those frequencies are very strong and the speakers to reproduce them must be very husky and robust. My organ, a Schober Recital Model, had 16' stops and was designed to be played through a home stereo system as long as it had bass speakers strong enough to handle it. My system first used Wharfdale sand-damped cabinets with 12" woofers and I graduated to Fisher XP-18s with 18" woofers. I was never dissatisfied with the sound my organ produced.

                    However, from what I've read on some of the threads here, some organs have speaker systems designed such that their frequency spectra complement the settings of the instrument--in other words, true "high fidelity" is not desired, but rather a tailored spectrum designed with the organ in mind. If that is not the situation, then any really good hi-fi speakers should be able to work with the organ, providing that they are able to handle the power and have a flat range down to 16Hz.

                    David

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for the thorough tutorial, IndianaJo.

                      I'm going to read your post again in detail tomorrow as I get slowed up on all the electronic terms ... but I can work through it with enough patience and probably learn something.

                      With regards to the 15 inch Rodgers double woofer you long for ... that thing is not coming into the house. Just ask my wife, she'll tell you.

                      But if I built a box for just one of the two 15 inchers, it might work.

                      Question though ... this 2 x 15 inch monster I have was made to run off of one of the Rodgers amps. What happens if you disconnect one of the two 15" speakers? Does twice as much power go to the one remaining speaker? I'm imagining water flowing out of two outlets, and if you plug one up, the water backs up and increases in pressure upstream. Does an amplified speaker signal not work that way? (I'm obviously an idiot on the subject of electronics and audio signals.)

                      Or can I easily use one of the two 15" Rodgers speakers with the same amp and all is safe and well?

                      I've wondered the same thing about daisy-chaining the twelve speaker cabinets, were I to do that. Does the amp "know" how many speakers are attached behind it and then sends the appropriate amount of power? Can a guy arbitrarily hook up one, two, or three cabinets per channel and the amps send less or more power to accommodate the extra or less cabinets that have been added or removed?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Speakers have "Impedance" which is something like resistance, which is easier to understand. Most 15" speakers these days are "4 ohms". Probably your rogers box has the two 15" speakers "in series" (plus of one to minus of the other, amp to plus of first and minus of second). which is the most common hookup. At least with Peavey. Your 240 watt amp is probably fine with either 4 ohms or 8 ohms either one. Transistor amps are sensitive to excessive current, which could be caused by hooking up to 4 ohm speakers in "parallel" which is amp + to term 1 of both speakers, and amp - to term 2 of both speakers. Very few amps are specified to handle this low an "impedance".
                        However, bass boxes are sealed and baffled, or "ported" to get a flat response. Building one yourself is like jumping off Key West for a swim to Tortuga Key. Theoretically possible, but takes a lot of training. On diyaudio, subwoofer thread, people are endlessly discussing how to build speaker boxes that sound good. I do a lot of amp and preamp re-capping, and have done amp and mixer upgrades so far that went well on the seventh try, but I won't try speaker enclosure design myself.
                        One possibilty is putting the existing dual speaker in the basement or in a closet with just the grill opening into the main room. Some people put them outside and disguise them as an airconditioner or something. Some people hide the whole speaker setup with a tapestry or cloth print over the whole end of the room where they are. Stay away from quilted bedspreads, however.
                        As far as hooking 12 speakers in series, I think that is probably getting off the end of the plausible. If each was 4 ohms, 12 in series would be 48 ohms, and your amp does not produce full voltage to drive the right amount of current through 48 ohms. So your sound would be softer than if you had 1 or 2 speakers, which are probably within the limits of your amp (going by the capacitor voltage).
                        city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Neumie,

                          Two points to keep in mind in selecting speakers for an organ:

                          1. The power demands placed on speakers that reproduce live organ music are much greater than the demands placed on speakers that play recorded music (even organ music). Recorded music has been amplitude- and frequency-limited, and it typically contains a complex and fast-changing frequency spectrum. These features make the power requirements for amplifiers and speakers fairly modest unless one goes to ridiculous and damaging sound pressure levels. On the other hand, live organ music often contains sustained notes that require a great deal of power to reproduce--especially at the lower frequencies--with no means of limiting power dissipation until an amplifier or speaker overloads.


                          2. To reproduce the lowest octave of organ music (16-32 Hz for 32' stops) at anything resembling realistic levels requires an enormously capable sub-woofer and amplifier system. Again, the amplifier power requirements to drive the speaker are very large at low frequencies--they can be in the hundreds or even thousands of watts for a small room if you want to "feel" the bass. And the speaker or speakers to which the amps are connected likewise must handle very large power levels on a continuous basis.

                          Although many cheap (and not-so-cheap) subs claim "2000 W" and "15 Hz" specifications, most of these numbers are garbage--particularly the frequency response. No amount of razzle-dazzle technology can substitute for what is needed most in reproducing very low frequencies--a large speaker cabinet (many cubic feet in volume) together with one or more long-throw, large-diameter drivers and a powerful amplifier. Only a handful of the audiophile subs available today can even come close to satisfying these requirements. Your Rodgers speaker is a step in the right direction, but even the large subs from the organ manufacturers roll off going down to 16 Hz and would need some equalization to sound their best.

                          In an effort to improve efficiency and frequency response, many speaker makers use ported ("bass-reflex") cabinets for their subs. Unless they contain built-in filtering to limit the low end response, these speakers are in danger of self-destructing if one drives them too hard at too low a frequency. Essentially, any input below the resonant frequency of the cabinet (which depends on the driver and on the cabinet design) will begin to cause very large, uncontrolled excursions in the driver cone until something bottoms out or tears apart. For this reason, high-power subs often revert to a sealed enclosure to protect the speaker and smooth out the response. Allen's HC-12 (which is a full-range cabinet, but one optimized for low frequencies) is an example of this approach.


                          As someone mentioned here, incorporating the structure of your house into a subwoofer cabinet design is ultimately going to be the most satisfying. A common choice is to place the speakers in the ceiling with the backs open to the attic (taking proper heat-loss and rodent protection measures, of course). Then the entire attic will be part of the "infinite baffle" that ideally should surround the back of any driver, improving frequency response and efficiency immensely. In fact, an Allen dealer suggested precisely this arrangement while he was in the process of selling me my current speaker set-up (HC-15s), seemingly an acknowledgement that even Allen's best sub would be no match for this simple but effective house-as-speaker arrangement.

                          So I would not worry too much about foregoing your Rodgers sub, although it is likely to be quite good. Instead, concentrate on finding some good audiophile-quality speakers to handle the higher frequencies (perhaps 60 Hz and up), and give thought to some sort of built-in subwoofer system. I am ultimately headed that way myself, although I am currently testing a cylinder sub from SVS with rather good results.

                          Keep us informed of your progress.

                          Don

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This thread gives me a chance to ask your collective wisdom. A pipe organ I'm involved with, I'm going to add a II Flute Celeste 8' on the Swell, full compass (even the celeste). It'll be done with 122 independent oscillators I'll home-brew.
                            Each of the two ranks will have separate audio... one speaker, which I don't have, and a 100W amp, which I do. Question- given the 65Hz-4KHz range (I may add an extra octave at the top), what do you recommend for a speaker? It must have smooth frequency response of course. Before anyone asks- I'm not worrying about keeping it in tune with the pipes as the essentially sinewaves wouldn't sound out-of-tune unless wildly off, and the stop won't be used with any pipe stops. TIA! Bill Miller, Norfolk VA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by beel m View Post
                              Question- given the 65Hz-4KHz range (I may add an extra octave at the top), what do you recommend for a speaker? It must have smooth frequency response of course. Bill Miller, Norfolk VA
                              I gave the link above, and I hate to ride my hobbyhorse too much, but 65 hz to 4k puts this $600 new speaker right in the ball park: Peavey SP2 (2004)
                              specs:Frequency response, 1 meter on-axis, Mid/high frequency section: Input connections:
                              swept-sine in anechoic environment: 110 dB SPL (2.83 V input) Full Range: two 1/4" phone jacks,
                              54 Hz to 17 kHz (±3 dB)
                              one Neutrik® four-pin Speakon® jack
                              Maximum sound pressure level & one Neutrik NL4 Speakon
                              Usable low frequency limit (1 meter): (bi-amp only)
                              (-10 dB point): Full range:
                              44 Hz 125 dB SPL continuous Enclosure materials and finish:
                              131 dB SPL peak Nine-ply Baltic birch plywood
                              Power handling: Low frequency section: finished in black carpet
                              Full range: 126 dB SPL continuous
                              500 Watts continuous 132 dB SPL peak Mounting provisions:
                              1,000 Watts program High frequency section: This unit is not designed for
                              2,000 Watts peak 129 dB SPL continuous overhead suspension
                              135 dB SPL peak
                              Low frequency section:
                              Built-in SA-1 stand-mount adapter
                              500 Watts continuous Radiation angle measured at and four large rubber feet on bottom
                              1,000 Watts program -6 dB point of polar response: for floor use
                              2,000 Watts peak 90° horizontal by 40° vertical
                              Dimensions (H x W x D):
                              High frequency section: The vertical main polar lobe is Front:
                              60 Watts continuous angled down 10° with respect to 30.75” x 20.56” x 23.00”
                              120 Watts program straight ahead being +10, -30° 781 mm x 522 mm x 584 mm
                              240 Watts peak
                              Transducer complement: Rear:
                              Sound pressure level, 1 Watt, Low frequency section: 30.75” x 12.5” x 23.00”
                              1 meter in anechoic environment: 1x 15" woofer, vented 781 mm x 314 mm x 584 mm
                              Full range: 1508-8 HE SF
                              98.0 dB SPL (2.83 V input)
                              Net Weight:
                              High frequency section: 71 Lbs. (32.3kg)
                              Low frequency section: 1x .875" exit /51mm voice coil
                              99 dB SPL (2.83 V input) RXTM 22 compression driver on an
                              I apologize the 3 columns are all crammed together. It looks fine in the input page with spaces spreading everything out, but the forum software crams everything together if you don't have some sort of tabular character in there. Look at the datasheet as shown above.
                              I can't reproduce the frequency and distortion diagrams but the frequency chart is +- 3 db 54 hz 17 khz. Harmonic distortion is actually charted, which is unusual in this industry, and shows 30 db down 50 hz to 10 khz @ 1% full power, and 20 db down 50 hz to 10 khz @ 10% full power. I can't plot those, their a pdf file and I don't have the rights. download it yourself.
                              About the lying with figures phenomenon: I used to wonder why R**** Sh**** speakers were specified at 20-20khz +-3 db, and sounded so bad in the store. I bought a RS headphone once, and the oriental supplier let the cat out of the bag in the accompaning folder. The frequency spec was as above. The production tolerance was +-30 db. So basically if the diaphragm moved at all, it met R**** Sh****'s specification. However, I personally went to the store an listened to a pair of Peavey SP2 (2004) with a piano CD, before I bought my used ones off a disgruntled bar band.
                              If your bargain 100W amp lacks protections circuits, overheats the transistors and blows up a Peavey, at the moment the BW 15" woofer is supported with a replaceable cone as well as a complete new driver depending on what you damaged. The 2" liquid cooled horn is supported with factory replacement drivers. the horn is part of the plastic molding.
                              I paid about $600 a pair for my PV2-XT's the previous version, which have better sensitivity but lack a distortion specification chart and weigh more. The newer (2004) ones sound a tiny bit better. You can do as well pricewise in the USA by watching craigslist and catching bar band breakups with fast cash. Dealers tend to snap these up and resell them at a markup. As with anything on craigslist, one must take his CD player and test that the units are not blown up.
                              I'm told JBL and Yamaha make equivalent quality speakers, but they don't lay it all out on graphs like this datasheet, at least what I have downloaded.
                              I think the problem with neumie's JBL powered speaker is in the amp section, but as much as I like upgrading amp with $.20 resistors and semiconductor design tweaks, opening a prepackaged speaker to work on the amp and reduce hiss has a significant risk of messing up the baffling or something and physical and destroying the quality controlled configuration that establishes the flat frequency response.
                              And if you think a PA setup can't possibly produce the power of an organ setup, I suggest you study the 5 240 W rogers amps neumie bought, versus the stack typically at the edges of the stage of a Rock concert. PA equipment is not usually specified down to 20 hz, that is the big difference. Not even 218 (two 18" woofers) are tuned down to 20 hz. My Peavey dealer rents equipment to shows and will tell you what he used last week. 240 W of bass is chicken feed. Most high end bands use a pair of bass boxes with 6 or 8 each 15" woofers, driven by a 1300 W to 2500 watt amp. Treble, 600 W is plenty for a crowd under 300. In the home, I'm typically running my SP2-XT's at max 2 Vpp and 1 Vpp average, which is about 1/2 to 1/8 watt. I don't have a memory scope so I can't determine the voltage during the cannon shot in 1812 overture. However the dynakit ST70 amp peaks at 17 Vpp on 8 ohms winding and is plenty loud. My living/dining room is 14'W x 11' H by 33' long and the speakers are on stands at the narrow end above and behind the Steinway console piano.
                              Last edited by indianajo; 03-17-2012, 08:13 PM.
                              city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

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