What can you tell me about an Ahlford-Galanta(??) organ?

[sptodd]

Preludium by Galanta is the organ I (unfortunately) was stuck playing in this giant cathedral for EAster. (You'd think they could afford an Allen or Rodgers). Choice in sound was mish-mash soft to mish mash full reed overkill and nothing really in between. No definition. I'm guessing the organ is 25 years old or so.....and am thinking to advise them to replace..(for whatever good that will do).
What do you know about this genre of "instrument"?

[cantornikolaos]

I've always had a high opinion of Ahlborn-Galanti. Your organ probably needs voicing. If it is a recent model, you can voice it to your liking by yourself. I think you can voice the Chronicler models yourself, but anything Drake is definitely user-voicable and even contains a substantial library of stops that can be used.

Is this what you have? http://www.ahlbornorgans.com/eng/pro...m_main_eng.htm That's not very old at all. If that's what you have, you don't need to replace it. You need to re-voice it.

My church has a POS Allen "organ" and the sound I hear on Sunday is a lot like a cleaner version of a Lowrey Holiday Genie. I'm not kidding. It's an MDS, but that's new enough that there's no excuse for that kind of sound. I'd take an Ahlborn Galanti or Rogers over an Allen ANY DAY! I would give anything to have a 14 rank W. Zimmer & Sons pipe organ instead of that vulgar Allen. It's extremely poorly voiced and poorly installed.

OK, on to Galanti. In the 1980s, they produced organs that had decent solo stops, but the Ensembles were lacking, according to other people on the forum. I've heard some people say they can be voiced to correct that, somewhat. I don't know which AG models are "fixed" and which ones aren't, but I know that the SL-300 was "fixed" (not user voicable) but some AG technicians were able to voice them pretty nicely. The oldest AG I've ever been around is the Angelus and a digital Baldwin Howard Classic that was built by Ahlborn-Galanti.

Both of the aforementioned organs blew the Allen MDS out of the water. They were from the Late ADC or maybe early MDS era. The Angelus was lightyears ahead of the Allen MDS in terms of producing natural sound. The one I saw was temporarily installed in a Methodist church while the old pipe organ was removed for restoration. The speakers were in the organ chambers.

If I was going to buy a new electronic organ, I would first of all NOT consider ANYTHING Allen. Secondly, I would consider either a new AG, Rodgers or Phoenix.

Phoenix is a great electronic organ builder and they're very flexible. If you have an old console you love, they can rebuild it for you. They use quality pipe organ industry parts. They readily do hybrid organs or digital additions to pipe organs. Another significant advantage over Allen is user voicability. Allen organs are voiced by technicians using proprietary software. If you have a bad Allen technician, like the one at Case Brothers in Spartanburg, SC they will do a HORRIBLE job voicing it and if you don't like it, you're stuck paying a tech to come re-voice it or listening to auditory torture all the time. I have heard they will sell you the software, but I am not sure they will support you if something goes wrong. It's my understanding that they want you dependent on those technicians because service calls are profitable business. Phoenix on the other hand gives you the voicing software and shows you how to use it.

I think Rodgers sounds notably better than Allen and Ahlborn-Galanti is even better. AG has some of the most natural-sounding digital stops I've ever heard. Both Rodgers and Ahlborn-Galanti come with pipe organ compatibility "out f the box", so if you wanted to add pipes it's not a big deal. Just get the available pipe organ interface and you're in business! This way, you can build a relatively low-cost hybrid pipe organ. It can also the a two-stage organ project to offset cost.

I don't know if you're interested in hybrid pipe organs. If I was fortunate enough to be in a situation where the church was looking to get a new organ, I'd be happy to have a hybrid.

Allen does also supply hybrid organs, but it's my understanding they they're more expensive and maybe proprietary. While any Allen model can be ordered with a pipe organ interface, it's not a feature that Allen organs have native support for. If you have a recent Allen and want to add pipes, that means costly hardware and software upgrades. This, along with my very unpleasant experience is why I would encourage you to look at other brands.

As much as a hate Allen, I won't deny that they do have nice console hardware. Their organs don't feel cheap. Granted, the MOS feels more rugged than the Quantum. However, all their hardware that I've been aroud feels fairly solid. All the stuff i would want is extra $$, but if you want it, they can do it. One of Allen's redeeming qualities is their console hardware. It's too bad they don't make consoles and parts for the pipe organ industry.

One gripe I have about AG and Rodgers is their heavy use of cheap-looking lightup stop controls. I want rocker switches and drawknobs that move and not light up. You can get real drawknobs with Rodgers and AG.

There are AG and Rodgers organs that "feel cheap" that have lasted 25 years, so as much as I hate that printed vinyl on MDF and plastic stop control stuff that lights up, that wouldn't stop me from buying those brands if I have to chose between a pretty console or a musical instrument that is actually musical.

BTW. I don't represent Ahlborn-Galanti, Rodgers or Phoenix.

[arie v]

Nikolaos,

The organ referred to here by the original poster is likely a first generation Galanti called either a Praeludium I or II or III. Built from 1986 to about 1993. The 3 manual may have been in production till 1994 or 1995. The P I and P II, were 2 manual organs and were initially sold in the US by Baldwin as Baldwin Howard models.

The new Ahlborn Praeludiums are not sold in North America.

AV

[Clarion]

One gripe I have about AG and Rodgers is their heavy use of cheap-looking lightup stop controls. I want rocker switches and drawknobs that move and not light up. You can get real drawknobs with Rodgers and AG.

Hi Cantornikolaos!!

I am not quite sure what you mean by "cheap-looking lightup stop controls", but I presume you are talking about the 'standard' light up rocker tab used on virtually all rocker tab organs these days: pipe or digital.

While drawknobs were once a necessary downside of implementing organ functions w-a-a-a-y back in the electro-pneumatic mechanical era, in the modern world of digital controls, those awkward drawknobs no longer serve a useful function. They have now been replaced by "cheap-looking lightup stop controls", which personally, I don't consider cheap looking, and far more functional.

So . . . on a digital organ, what advantage do drawknobs have to offer over tabs? From my experience in ordering a new digital organ (Phoenix), I could buy a new car with the $$$ I saved on going rocker tab rather than drawknob! Another similar passion often embraced, is a big honkin' console, rather than a slim trim French style slant console more popular in Europe.

Our primary concert hall up here in Toronto includes a Gabriel Kney tracker organ with a console waaay up the wall under the the pipes. Of all the concerts I have attended their over the years, I've never once seen the tracker console used. Every concert I have ever attended, has used the auxilliary stage console; a slant-sided French console, with (gasp) cheap looking push buttons that don't even light up! ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5KqahRwNPo

I don't believe Diane's performance would be in any way augmented by having drawknobs rather than push-buttons. While I can't see any tabs lights, I would strongly suspect that each button contained an LED indicator.

There are AG and Rodgers organs that "feel cheap" that have lasted 25 years, so as much as I hate that printed vinyl on MDF and plastic stop control stuff that lights up, that wouldn't stop me from buying those brands if I have to chose between a pretty console or a musical instrument that is actually musical.

While I agree with your distain for printed vinyl on MDF, or vinyl MDF anything, that's where I absolutely draw the line. There is no way I would ever buy a printed vinyl MDF console! :-P A well built console is a long term investment that lasts for a lifetime! From time-to-time, when the electronics could benefit from a rebuild, it will be a whole lot less expensive, than to have to replace the entire organ!

Phoenix does a really great job of upgrading the electronics of an old organ console; with the one caveat: The console to be upgraded must be worthwhile, and in exemplary condition. i.e. this Rodgers console that was shipped all the way from California to Toronto, for rebuilding:

http://phoenixorgans.com/installatio...stallation=103

And I find this Conn rebuild fascinating, and one of my favourites:

http://phoenixorgans.com/installatio...nstallation=86

[cantornikolaos]

Those console rebuilds are one of the things I like about Phoenix.

I'd be OK with a console that has rockers that move, but I dislike the light-up stuff. Still, if I had to chose between a nice console and a musical console, I'd take the musical one.

The Allen "organ" my church has has moving tabs, but it produces the most vulgar sound I've ever heard, so I'd take a Rodgers or AG with light-up tabs and decent sound over an organ with moving tabs and crap for sound. Like I said before, the sound I hear in church is not unlike the sound of a Lowrey Holiday Genie. All it needs is light-up multi-coloured stop keys and a drum machine!

Remember those old house organs? Some even had tape decks! If the Allen had a tape deck, we could play a tape of the same music played with the same registration on a real organ somewhere and I'm sure it'd be a huge improvement!!!!

BTW, I'm not exaggerating. It really is that bad.

[cantornikolaos]

Well, back to the subject, an organ like that might be ready for replacement. I think it can be improved with voicing, but I am not familiar with that model. Even if it can be improved with voicing and even an enlarged audio system, it will still have a distinctive sound.

I probably would want to replace it.

Also, possible correction: What I know about Allen and pipe organ interface is limited. Someone I know who plays a Quantum (voiced by George Hiatt too) says all of Allen's current generation Quantum models can support a pipe organ interface "out of the box". I don't know if that's true. I personally don't think Allen does a good enough job publicizing that.

If what he says is true, you can add a pipe organ to a Quantum just by adding the pipe organ interface. I originally thought that you had to order it with a pipe driver otherwise, adding it would involve a lot of expensive hardware and software upgrades. I do think that's true if you want to add pipes to an MDS. I've heard of an MDS hybrid, but never encountered one.

Still, I would chose another brand because of the experience that I have. If I HAAAAAAAD to have an Allen, I'd want George Hiatt to voice it.

I really do think Phoenix has the most artistic integrity of any electronic organ brand.

[cantornikolaos]

Here is a link to recordings on the Phoenix website.

http://phoenixorgans.com/recordings.htm

[don60]

OK, Nikolaos, I am sensing that you are not terribly fond of your Allen MDS at church. In its defense, I have to say that there is no fundamental flaw in this series of organs that would make them incapable of a realistic and satisfying sound. Quite the contrary--a number of our members feel that the MDS instruments were the pinnacle of Allen's digital technology, even better in their way than the later Renaissance platform.

As you allude, speaker placement and tonal finishing are critical in obtaining proper sound with any electronic organ. The MDS organs do not have note-by-note voicing, but they have lots of capability to set the overall frequency contour and gain for each tone generator in a manner similar to the voicing of the precursor ADCs. With the addition of better articulation and some "wind" effects, the MDS organs definitely were a step up from the later ADCs, which in turn were better than the first-gen ADCs. Properly set up, the MDS organs are very pipe-like without being obnoxious or obvious, and they can be balanced to most environments quite well. Naturally, if they lack proper speakers, nothing much in the finishing is going to help. I suspect that such is the case in your church. Have you investigated the model numbers and quantity of speakers? Their positions in the building? The identity of the person who finished the organ and the approximate date of the work? The possibility that changes were made to the installation after the initial work was completed properly?

My standard for the MDS line is an admittedly large, high-end model (MDS-85S) in my old parish. It was ordered, installed, and finished directly from the factory (yes, such a thing is possible if one knows the right people). The sound is glorious, as good as any I have heard from any digital organ, yet the room is not especially remarkable for size, shape, or acoustical properties. The installation evolved over a year or more as the music director lived with the instrument and requested changes and improvements. The final result has lots of speakers, well-placed, and very careful adjustment of the finishing controls. It's not magic to make a digital organ sound good, but some inept technicians must think that it is.

I encourage you to try salvage your situation by getting some expert opinions on the current installation and possible ways to improve it. No one should have to live with the sort of sound that you describe, nor should the organ be producing such a sound!

Don

[davidecasteel]

Is it possible that some (or all) the speakers have deteriorated and are producing bad sound?

David

[arie v]

Don,

I don't know what model Nikolaos plays in his church, but it is almost a guarantee it is not an MDS-85S.

Having serviced a few MDS organs, I find the smaller ones such as MDS-1 and MDS-5 etc. to be uninspired sounding. I;m not sure they were even competitive sounding against other makes and models. Seems that the models above those sounded better and were much more musical.

I serviced an MDS-30LDS, in a Mormon chapel, and it sounded abysmal. Since I had to take the back off, I decided to see if something could be done. Once I figured out all the controls I went to work regulating and rebalancing the instrument, and it ended up sounding quite respectable. Better than I thought was possible in a typically acoustically dead LDS chapel.

The larger late ADC and MDS models are still regarded as fine instruments.

AV

[OrgansR4Me]

I have an older ADC in my collection and while I'm not a student of "classical" literature and not capable of fully implementing its "German" voicing, I'd never compare it to a Lowrey. As Arie points out there is probably just need for adjustment to compensate for aging. I'm sure Allen wouldn't have done a poor installation when new. I'm about to start some restoration on mine and really looking forward to using it again.

[cantornikolaos]

I've been trying to salvage the situation by praying fervently for a Divinely-ordained lightning strike! Every time I go in church, I light a candle and pray for lightning to hit the Allen "organ". I'd give ANYTHING for a pipe organ or even a hybrid.

In all seriousness, I am aware that the MDS is a very capable instrument even though it doesn't have the note-by-note voicing or real samples. The local dealer and the local rep are notorious among non-Baptists for doing very poor installations and trashy voicing. The "organ" I constantly complain about is an MDS-26 (arguably too small for a room that holds 500 and has a 60' dome). What business does any kind of electronic instrument have in a church like that?!!? Obviously, there's also an epic leadership fail, but I'm going to focus on the organ and its installation.

The MDS-26 has two speakers in the back "main" and four speakers for the "antiphonal" in the chancel. The antiphonal is only used at weddings and the like. It is much less embarrassing. I wish the MDS-26 had more channels and GT/PD and SW were on separate channels. That would be really nice. If you could seperate reeds, principals, flutes and strings, that would also be awesome.

I think the MDS-26 has an adequately-large stoplist, but it has too few channels and this particular installation does have a very inadequate audio system. If Allen made a 2M organ with 8-16 channels, I'd love that! Also, I think the voicing could be a lot better. Choruses don't build that well. Regardless of the voicing, I do believe a better speaker system with more speakers would go a long way to improve things. I asked someone if he thought the MDS is worth adding HR-100s to. He said it is. If I was going to get any Allen, I'd want to have Allen's Herald speakers. I'm sure the HC-14s are good speakers, but the HR speakers add so much clarity and definition, it's amazing. They also do a better job diffusing sound in a way that is more natural.

What I hear in church is very harsh. You can actually hear the speakers. It sounds like electronic organ noise coming out of speakers. This organ installation is an example of everything that could be done wrong, being done wrong. I have a video that illustrates this very clearly. I am offended beyond my ability to express that this is all we can be bothered to offer Christ, on Holy Friday or on Pascha or any other Sunday for that matter. Holy Week and easter, it offends me the most.

If I had the money, I'd offer to pay for four HR-100s and an SR-5, a beautiful pipe organ facade and a voicing job by George Hiatt. I'm sure that would make it a completely different instrument.

[cantornikolaos]

Gather 'round. It's story time.

The Allen MDS I always cry about isn't the only bad apple in the barrel. The same dealer, Case Brothers installed a 3M Allen Renaissance in Prince of Peace Catholic Church. They used horrible speakers and did really trashy voicing. Prince of Peace actually has standards and they weren't any happier with Case Brothers than I am. They got George Hiatt from Fox Music in Charleston to come and he made that Renaissance sound amazing! Charleston's religious demographic is a little different than the upstate of South Carolina and thus, they have musical standards that are unheard of here.

George found that the speakers installed by Case Brothers aren't even real Allen speakers. They aren't HC-14 or HC-12 or any of that. They look like organ speakers, but there is no label of any sort. I'm dying to know if Prince of Peace paid for two pairs of HC-14s. These look like copycats. They're home-made garage speakers. The construction doesn't look sloppy, but it is NOT an Allen speaker. There's a lot more to speaker design that cutting holes in a baffle and gluing the cabinet together! If you don't know anything sound or speaker design, you shouldn't build "garage speakers" and sell them with an Allen organ!!! I didn't even know you could do that! I'm sure Allen Organ Company will be happy to know. There is no technical data on the speaker at all, so it's anybody's guess what the ohm load or power handling is. Couldn't that void the manufacturer's warranty? I'm going to post a picture.









Anyway, George installed real Allen speakers. and totally re-voiced the organ. I am not too fond of the festival trumpet, but everything else is out of this world! My favorite is the thundering pedal reed! Choruses build beautifully. The organ has a full, rich and bright sound and there is adequate bass too. You can feel it in your chest down in the nave!

This Renaissance is the organ I would show people if I wanted to convince them they should buy an Allen. My church's MDS is the organ I would show them if I wanted to convince them NOT to buy an Allen.

[cantornikolaos]

BTW: Here is an HC-14. http://www.allenorgan.com/www/produc...kers/hc14.html

Also, check out the current "Organ of the Week". I could live with an Allen like this! http://www.allenorgan.com/organoftheweek/go/index.html I'd want it voiced by George Hiatt and I'd want some pipes added, but this looks like an Allen I'd be happy to have. ;)

[don60]

Nikolaos,

Yes, OOW is quite handsome this time.

Does the photo above show the inside of your church? It is magnificent! I can understand your wanting a top-notch organ to do justice to this setting.

The MDS 26 is apparently a four-channel organ; I would guess it has two channels for the Swell and two for the Great/Pedal. So if you are running off of two mains, someone has mixed it down below even this minimal configuration. I agree that more channels would be nice, but what you really need (and could implement) is more amplifiers and speakers. The room I see would call for a bare minimum of eight full-range cabinets for the mains, with one speaker on either side of the sanctuary for each channel. If you want the organ to speak from the front, the speakers could be tucked in next to the side arches that flank the altar. You would undoubtedly need some antiphonals to cover the side galleries as well as they would suffer from dead spots otherwise.

Maybe lightning WILL strike, so to speak, and you will at least be able to acquire some genuine Allen speakers. Be careful about praying for lighting to strike the organ itself, though--insurance will probably pay to replace only the organ while arguing that the old speakers are fine!

Don