Direct experience with either Roland C380 or Allen CF8 or CF15?

[LCO]

Does anyone have any direct experience with the Roland C380 or the Allen CF8 or CF15 in a church installation? I am so baffled and confused by dealers saying they have our best interests I don't know who to believe. We have narrowed it down to these three models. The prices ar $25K, $20K, and $26K respectively with the Allens having the Vista Midi added. The Roland would have FR1 speakers and the Allens, HR200 speakers. The church is small. About 100 people, usually half full.

Factual, non-biased information is greatly appreciated.

LCO

[MarkS]

The Roland doesn't have an AGO pedalboard so I would skip it.

Yes, a dozen folks will describe how wonderfully Hector Olivera plays it. However, your church won't be hiring Hector Olivera as organist--ever. The rest of us aren't nearly that talented and will have problems adjusting. Thinking of the future, if you want to attract an organist, perhaps a local college organ major, the AGO pedalboard is mandatory.

And yes, every summer I play a recital on an organ with a 30 note flat pedalboard. But it's an 1891 3 manual Roosevelt and I'm willing to deal with it, as are many others who enjoy playing historic pipe organs.

Of course, this is the opinion of just one organist...

[nullogik]

Have you considered a secondhand organ?

For that amount you could get a nice used Allen Renaissance, Quantum Renaissance or a late model Allen MDS. I think you'll find that you can purchase an instrument that will be far more versatile specification-wise than a CF8/15 or C380 is ever going to offer you within your budget. They'll also be a lot nicer built and will be a lot more appealing when recruiting an organist.

Such organs don't come on the market every day. So the idea would be to phone around as many Allen/Rodgers dealers as you can and put the word out that you are looking for a good used instrument. You might need to wait a few weeks or months but one will turn up.

In fact there is a thread on here (within the past few days) from a fellow member who has just bought a nice used Allen Quantum Renaissance for $20k:

http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l-Church/page5

[LCO]

We currently have two member organists, of which I am one. We are in a town of 2,000, and the next closest town is 30 miles and is <50,000 people. So I'm not sure we are going to attract many people due to our organ. However, we have GREAT theology and preaching. :-) We have cautiously considered a used organ, but they are few and far between within a reasonable distance. Our closest metro area is 250 miles away. There are two or three organs that I have found there.

nullogik, when you are talking about versatility, what do you mean? The three organs I mentioned have over 130 voices each? While I appreciate all kinds of good organists and music, do we need more than that in a rural town with "home raised" organists accompanying a congregation with hymns and liturgy?

LCO

[jbird604]

LCO,

My experience is not "direct" in the sense of having owned or been organist on one of these models, but I have heard them all and wouldn't have anything bad to say about any of them. I am in the organ service business and am also a self-taught church organist (not a recitalist, not even an AGO member, but a competent hymn and service player in a smallish church), so I have a dual perspective on the market. My small company also buys, refurbishes, and resells good Allen, Rodgers, and other premium organs, so I have seen a lot of those as well.

As noted, the Roland lacks an AGO pedalboard. I agree that the AGO pedalboard is truly your friend, not only because it can attract good players, but because it is just easier to play with the very comfortable and convenient spacing and concave radial layout of the keys. However, the AGO layout is not the only pedalboard that is easy to play, other standards being dominant in other parts of the world. In the service business, I often try out pedals that are "almost but not quite" AGO, such as some of the European imports, and usually find them perfectly fine.

The pedalboards to avoid (IMHO) are those that are either flat on the floor or have the keys too close together. I don't care for the Allen "princess" pedals used on the very smallest cheapest models only (not on either of the two models you are considering) because the spacing is a bit too close for my feet, though you will find many players who have become accustomed to those pedals and have no problem with them ...... I dislike playing any type of 25-note flat pedalboard, common on Hammond B/C/etc. "jazz" organs and also used on a lot of old Conn, Wurlitzer, and other now-defunct brands, because it is harder to use both feet or to do heel and toe correctly, .... and of course any type one-octave spinet pedals, which just don't work for much of anything except oom-pah-pah playing.

The 30-note straight-radiating pedals of the C-380 should be quite easy to navigate because they are at least concave and properly spaced. I have heard testimonials from owners and players with better credentials than I who say they hardly even notice when switching between AGO pedals and the C-380, but you'll just have to try them out for yourself to see if they suit you. The human brain is amazingly adept at accomodation, and you may discover that you'll adjust instantly and never even have to think about it.

That said, any of the models you mention will have pleasing stop lists and realistic pipe sound. The more you pay the more flexible will be your combination action and other helpful features. The larger Allen has divided expression, which might or might not be useful to you. I have actually seen situations where an organist dislikes having two expression pedals to the point of having someone in the church physically tie the two pedals together, and I find myself often placing a foot on both pedals at the same time and wishing there weren't two of them!

You will surely want more audio than the simple wimpy internal speaker systems of any of these, so talk to your dealer seriously about that and maker sure you get adequate amp power, the right number and placement of speakers, and some knowledgeable attention to the setup and voicing of the organ after installation.

Yes, as has been said, you might find a used organ less that 25 years old that would be less expensive and more sturdily built, but I understand what you're saying about your particular area. It might be quite difficult in such a remote location to find a good selection of used organs, having one brought in from afar will be costly, and you may need the attention of a good serviceman, which might be hard to obtain in a remote area. So you may actually be better off to buy a new organ that comes with a good warranty.

Just my thoughts, and I'm sure others will chime in and perhaps improve on what I'm saying here. Best of luck!

[arie v]

Hi LCO,

When it comes to a dealer saying that they have YOUR best interest in mind, what they are really saying is that they have THEIR best interest in mind. It is as simple as a meal ticket for them is better than a meal ticket for the other guy. And these days it is very important, as organ sales are plummeting big time. At the rate of current decline, there won't be much of of a market left at all within 5 years time.

I agree with what MarkS and JBird have written. A standard AGO standard console is a preference, when it comes to North America. It has the most comfortable pedalboard, and just feels more familiar than the various non-standard dimensioned consoles being offered.

Before making a decision, I would have go on the models interested in, check out the feel of the organ, the sound, etc. Try out some installed instruments to get a feel for what the dealer actually does in terms of installation work.

Have you checked out the Rodgers equivalent of the Roland C-380. It is the same organ except that it comes with an AGO console, pedalboard etc.

If as you say, you are in a rather remote location, perhaps buying new with a warranty makes sense. Buying a 20 year old organ now, means in 10 years time it is 30 years old, and will be considered an old organ.

Just some little seed thoughts from a service tech...............

AV

[LCO]

Well, extenuating circumstances have prevented us from going to hear or try the Allens. So the Roland is being installed today. Lord willing it will last a long time. It certainly sounds good and I'm sure it will sound even better with the permanent speakers. Your comments have been appreciated. Now maybe I can stick around and learn more from all of you about service playing, registration, music choices etc...

Have a blessed day,
LCO

[jbird604]

Good choice. I think you'll love it, as long as the dealer does a decent job of setting it up for you. And do visit this forum and ask a lot of questions. There is much good advice to be found about all those topics you mention. Blessings on your church and your musicians.