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Princess Vs AGO Pedalbords - Dimensions ?

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  • Princess Vs AGO Pedalbords - Dimensions ?

    Hi all,

    Another question I should know the answer to, but I guess I don't ! I realize that any of us can look at a pedalboard at any organ we see in person and know what style it is, but I am communicating longer distance with someone ( trying to dispose of an organ, but knows nothing much about it ), and trying to determine if it is a Princess board or not.

    On a normal AGO board, the sharps are about 5 & 1/4 " long from the console end to the tail end. I know Princess ones are shorter sharp keys, but do not know what dimension that is. Does anyone here know ? Or, perhaps have one handy to measure ?

    Any help will be appreciated.
    Regards, Larry

    At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

  • #2
    The easiest thing is the spacing of the notes near the front of the pedal board. One octave encompasses 17.5", the naturals are spaced 2.5" on centers. The smaller pedal board on my Baldwin is only 2.25" which is probably typical of the princess types.

    mike
    If it is Caesar that you worship, then Caesar you shall serve.

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    • #3
      Hi,

      There is a simple way to find out whether the pedals (console) is AGO or :Princess".

      Take your tape measure, and measure the width of the console. If the console width measures 52" or less it is not AGO and has princess pedals. If however it measures 57" or greater, it will be AGO. This is assuming 32 note concave radiating pedals, which would have been standard for North America anyway.

      AV

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      • #4
        Hi Mike and Arie,

        Thank you both for the information. Both ideas are great, and quite sensible. Maybe measuring the opening between the sides will be easier to do, for non organ person. But, I will ask them to do both.
        Regards, Larry

        At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

        Comment


        • #5
          I like Allen, overall, as a company, but the "princess pedalboard" always struck me as the height of marketing cynicism. There simply aren't many situations where the small reduction in the size of the console is really that critical. A few inches here, a few inches there. It's not like Allen is a Japanese company building for a market where apartments are the size of some American's linen closets. The point of it was simply to define the bottom of their line, set a price for that, so as to make the full AGO organs at a couple more thousand seem like a reasonable step up. Certainly, the materials cost between an ADC 221 and an ADC 420 would have been miniscule, but I vaguely remember from that time that at least the local dealer was selling the AGO spec for a couple thousand more. Rodgers never offered a smaller 32 note pedalboard did they? Even the name - how ridiculous! I bet Rodgers dealers got a lot of mileage out of ridiculing that over the years - "ok, check out the Allen dealership if you want, make sure they don't try to sell you a princess pedalboard!" If people wanted a compact pedalboard it could have been merely an available option, at no additional cost. Perhaps when Allen was designing their analog line in the late 50s, it made more sense in that world when a lot of small rural churches might have had a 25 pedal note Hammond. Nowadays it just seems like a trifling anachronism.

          Of course, if you look at ebay auctions over the past 10 years, its obvious that not many of these princess organs were ever sold after the late 70s. (that being the era of the ubiquitous and awful sounding MDC-20)

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          • #6
            Allen still sells the models with princess pedals, and there are churches, such as the one down the road from us, that prefer the smaller console. And Rodgers offered a similar pedalboard on the Trio organs.
            Mike

            My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.

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            • #7
              I'll have to do some measuring between my old Custom Carousel and my church model. I'm "half" remembering that the length of the natural studs is shorter on "princess" pedalboards also. I'm used to playing many spinet models as well so don't have much trouble adapting to different pedalboards but I can understand a seriously trained "professional" definitely needing AGO specs.

              Comment


              • #8
                Simply by scrolling down this page to the Similar Threads heading, I found this post
                http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post138523

                which has the dimensions of both a.g.o and princess pedal boards.

                No searching required.
                -Admin

                Allen 965
                Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                Hauptwerk 4.2

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                • #9
                  Allen still sells the models with princess pedals, and there are churches, such as the one down the road from us, that prefer the smaller console.

                  Are you sure they don't play a lot of advanced organ literature and simply prefer the savings of a couple thousand? Is this a church that meets in a former one room schoolhouse? There can't be more than a 6" difference in footprint size, both ways, for AGO versus princess. If Allen can sell them and (obviously) somehow make more money doing so, good for them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by circa1949 View Post
                    There can't be more than a 6" difference in footprint size, both ways, for AGO versus princess.
                    I'm happy for you that you are normal sized. I've had about 30 seconds each on two AGO pedal pipe organs, and was very uncomfortable stabbing for the low C with my navel at the right place. Both times I got a long speech about how organmaster shoes would solve all my problems, when I thought that perhaps practicing on a 25 pedal Hammond might have something to do with it. Besides, my feet are 1/2" narrower than standard, so I don't see the point of the organmasters either, if I can find width B shoes with the right heel. Being able to walk in and play anywhere would be a slight advantage, but taking enough training to get AGO approval strikes me like training to be a certified buggy whip repairman. However, if I bought a princess 32 pedal case to upgrade, I wouldn't be able to take $40 an hour lessons on a pipe organ either. When he has time, the teacher will drive over here for $50, so I'm still iffy on the 1962 Allen princess in Cincinnati. The electronics would have to all come out, that Allen is not much of an organ I don't believe even compared to my Hammond H.
                    city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

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                    • #11
                      After playing on 25 note Hammond pedal boards for the last quarter century, I found my self having to work hard on using the AGO 32 pedal board correctly. Funny, though now when I go back on a 25 note flat board I seem to "overshoot" the low C with my foot.
                      Are the AGO 32 pedal boards designed because of the 2 foot pedaling that is typically involved with the style(s) played on such consoles?? Curious

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hamman View Post
                        Are the AGO 32 pedal boards designed because of the 2 foot pedaling that is typically involved with the style(s) played on such consoles?? Curious
                        I'm playing with 2 feet heel and toe on the 25 pedal Hammond. It would be hard to play JS Bach legato one footed without using the string bass feature. And not even my A100 has pedal sustain solenoids; learning to depend on that would be too much of a home-only skill.
                        All those Schmitt and Czerny exercises as a kid kind of made me ambidextrous, and I guess it extends to my feet, also. Mother started me on piano in part because my right hand was going to wither away from lack of use.
                        The hardest thing I have to learn is using my right foot to change the volume occasionally. Mostly I just kick the pedal to soft while trying to play Eb1.
                        city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by indianajo View Post
                          I'm happy for you that you are normal sized.
                          I was talking about the footprint sized of the organ itself. If you are more comfortable on a princess pedal board, so be it, but I've seen some small framed, not very tall women who can go to town on an AGO pedalboard. So I don't think playing comfort generally comes into play (no pun intended) as a factor.

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                          • #14
                            My organ mentors made me play on as many different pedalboards as possible, from AGO/RCO 32 to 25 flat/radiating, to 13 and 25 note spinet, both straight and radiating, as well as all the odd ball boards in churches. "Learn how to ADAPT!" they drummed into me, and it worked. I don't play organ anywhere near as often as I used to, but it still doesn't usually take me too long to get 'at home', though there is one local church where the lowest C and D are a heck of a stretch for me.
                            It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

                            New website now live - www.andrew-gilbert.com

                            Current instruments: Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum Edition, Yamaha Genos, Yamaha PSR-S970, Kawai K1m
                            Retired Organs: Lots! Kawai SR6 x 2, Hammond L122, T402, T500 x 2, X5. Conn Martinique and 652. Gulbransen 2102 Pacemaker. Kimball Temptation.
                            Retired Leslies, 147, 145 x 2, 760 x 2, 710, 415 x 2.
                            Retired synths: Korg 700, Roland SH1000, Jen Superstringer, Kawai S100F, Kawai S100P, Kawai K1

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                            • #15
                              Hi All, This weekend I just acquired an Allen T12-B for a sweet price. That OAS is really bad this summer ! LOL It has the Princess pedalboard. So, because I had the Princess one and an AGO one handy in the shop, I made a video comparing the two, with the dimensions all noted. Here is the link if you would like to see it :
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QE8KBXA2-4



                              I'm pretty much like Andy in that I can play just about any pedalboard I happen to sit down at with a few minutes of acclimation. 13, 20, 25, 32 Princess, 32 AGO, etc. We must have had the same sort of teachers. The only style I have not yet tried is the concave straight BDO type. I don't expect there are many around in my part of the world.

                              Obviously one can't play all things on all different styles of pedalboard; accommodations have to be made to their limitations.
                              Regards, Larry

                              At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

                              Comment

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