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**clumber** · 11-06-2005, 09:14 AM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

Holy Shnikey!!! That's going to be one awesome instrument!!! Tell us about your church... what's their musical style? Do you do concerts or just Sunday services? What's the space look like? What speakers will the instrument use? You must be looking at a lot of amplification! What are your thoughts on second and third voicings? Was this Don's initial stoplist? What's the target date for install?

Andy

**toodles** · 11-07-2005, 11:10 AM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

With a stoplist like that, I can't see anything that could be added.

My only comments are regarding the mechanicals (and I am very fussy about these kinds of details, so some of this is just my opinion):

I prefer black shanks (could be walnut w/ dark stain), white drawknob heads with black engraving, red for reeds. I think white on black is easier to read and looks better. I also prefer white pistons, with black fill. Have a few samples made each way and see before you commit. Also, see real samples of different engraving fonts before picking one.

Also, I think on/off position is easier to see with white heads. Our eyes don't see dark things in as much detail as light things.

Personally, I prefer white/off white rockers. And I don't like wood rockers. Wood is a bad material choice, anyhow, unless it's ebony or impingo, as most species do not wear well.

I would not choose brass toe studs, but nickel or chrome plated. This is a matter of function: brass is soft, and oxidizes. After a few years they will show significant wear. Nickel and Chrome are extremely hard, and won't oxidize. They'll still be looking good after 10 years.

Lighted clear plexi music desks are OK, but I think a lattice wooden music rack looks much more elegant. You can still see through it (when the music is off the desk), but it won't show scratches like plexiglas. Plexiglas is actually fairly soft.

Toodles.

**organist777** · 11-07-2005, 11:36 AM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

quote:::
.........And I don't like wood rockers. Wood is a bad material choice, anyhow, unless it's ebony or impingo, as most species do not wear well............
........I would not choose brass toe studs, but nickel or chrome plated. This is a matter of function: brass is soft, and oxidizes......
end quote:::
--

Actually, wood wears wonderfully, is the traditional material for organ building, and has been used for hundreds of years on pipe organs. Pau Ferro is as hard or harder than Ebony, but has much more character in the grain.

As for brass toe studs, it really is a personal choice, but wear is not any more an issue with brass studs that nickel plated studs (which are also brass). The toe surface of the studs are diamond textured and do not show wear, and I have yet to see one oxidize since they are made from non-tarnishing brass and have a heavy clearcoat.

Dave.

**toodles** · 11-07-2005, 05:39 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

The softness of brass surface (speaking in engineering harness terms) makes the surface easy to scratch. I'm not so concerned about the brass wearing through, but rather the surface of the brass wearing & scratching. Chrome, Nickel, and "clear coat" all provide a more durable surface than raw brass, but I'm pretty sure that Chrome & Nickel are harder than any clear coat, and I know they are harder than brass. You can use a brass kitchen scratcher to polish chrome or nickel surfaces, and get no scratches--it'll just take off the dirt & grime on the chrome/nickel.

If Pau Ferro (maybe that's ironwood--from the "ferro") is harder than ebony, then indeed it is hard, and a good choice, and would wear well. But in any case, I wood and wood finishes are susceptible to degradation from skin acids & oils.

I just personally don't care for the look of engraved wood--it looks cheap to me. Many of the photos I've seen with wooden stop controls look "dirty" to me--I prefer the clean look of black on white. It's very much a personal choice as to the appearance. But, as a practical aspect, black on white provides higher contrast for greater legibility.

Toodles.

**toodles** · 11-07-2005, 05:43 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

A google search led me to a guitar site: pau ferro can cause allergic reactions in 15% of the population. I'd stay away from it, even if finished. Last thing you want to do is give a visiting organist a skin reaction!

A little more research on wood hardness: the Jenko scale is used (similar to Brinnell Hardness for metal)

Pau Ferro is 1780, up there a ways, but not the hardest wood around by a long shot.

But, even harder, are:

Impingo (African Black Rosewood) at 1980

Ebony at 3280

and Ipe (the hardest I could find) at 3684, more than twice as hard as Pau Ferro.

Toodles

**Guest** · 11-07-2005, 07:55 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

Could you shed some light on speakers. I am thinking 48 CH for this organ with 4 subs.

**organist777** · 11-07-2005, 08:25 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

I am well aware of the characteristics of many woods since I have been a woodworker since a young teen, and that was a long time ago, well over 40 years. I am aware of many woods that are irritants both mild and alarmingly dangerous. If you are concerned about irritant natures of woods then we will have to build our funiture, organ consoles and other musical instruments out of plastic. In the list below, you will see that Pau Ferro is classified as a rare irritant and Ebony is listed as a common irritant... more posionous than PF. You will also notice many common woods used in everyday furniture in just about any home. I can tell you from my 4 decades of woodworking experience, there is NO risk of irritation once a wood is finished with any finish type of finish from hand-rubbed oil to lacquer.

(The problem of discoloration due to hand oils is limited to the lighter woods. Hand oil tends to enhance the appearance of dark hardwoods over time and use.)

# Alder: irritant/eye & skin, respiratory
# Ash: irritant/respiratory
# Balsam fir: sensitizer/eye & skin/small/dust/rare
# Beech: sensitizer/respiratory/great/dust/rare
# Birch: sensitizer/respiratory, nausea/great/dust, wood/rare
# Boxwood: sensitizer/respiratory/small/dust, wood/rare
# Ebony: irritant, sensitizer/respiratory, eye & skin/great/dust, wood/common
# Fir: irritant/eye & skin/small/rare
# Ipe: irritant/respiratory, eye & skin
# Mahogany, American: sensitizer/respiratory, eye & skin/small/dust/rare
# Mahogany, African: sensitizer/respiratory/great/dust/rare
# Maple: sensitizer/respiratory/great/dust, wood/rare
# Oak, red: nasal/great/dust/rare
# Padauk: irritant/respiratory, eye & skin, nausea/extreme/dust, wood/common
# Pau ferro: sensitizer/eye & skin/small/dust, wood/rare
# Purpleheart: sensitizer/eye & skin, nausea/small/dust, wood/rare
# Rosewood(s): irritant, sensitizer/respiratory, eye & skin/extreme/dust, wood/common
# Spruce: sensitizer/respiratory/small/dust, wood/rare
# Teak: sensitizer/eye & skin/extreme/dust/common
# Walnut, black: sensitizer/eye & skin/great/leaves & bark/unknown
# W. redcedar: sensitizer/respiratory, nasal cancer/great/dust/common

Now, why don't we all move back to the subject of the thread... 'malonejmm's' request for advice on his stoplist.

Thanks,

Dave.

**Guest** · 11-16-2005, 10:12 AM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

I have just finished watching a DVD sent to me by Phoenix and reading through a presentation booklet they mailed me. The casework options offered are stunning! Far exceeding anything I had even thought about. The speaker cabinets with faux pipes are amazing. It would add to any room.

**Guest** · 11-16-2005, 01:50 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

This is going to be in a home in New Orleans.

**M1994** · 11-16-2005, 09:28 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

That's good to hear. I really like the one installation I've seen..exposed speakers, no faux pipes, but in that church there wasn't much of an option. The console however, first rate. Comfortable as any casavant I've ever played. I fidget on a letourneau occasionally (one in 3 sessions I can't find that 'sweet spot') Casavants, I can just sit down and play. The Phoenix is the same way. I also love how you can buy a 22 stop 2 manual, and the console (side cheeks especially) looks beefier than anything Allen or Rodgers make save the top 3 Allen models (the lower 4 manual model is still flimsy lookin, the BIG console is top 3 only) and not sure about Rodgers. I don't know how comfortable a good rodgers is, but Allen....fidget fidget once again. Plus the key action isn't near as good. I think you made a real good choice, and if New Orleans gets more Mardi Gras after the tragedies, I'll be sure to take a look at that organ if I'm ever down there.

**PhoenixOwner** · 11-19-2005, 08:33 AM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

I have been working with Phoenix on a new organ for my home studio to replace an Allen digital.

I gave Phoenix only one hard and fast rule for building this organ: NO Plastic!! So I chose the Pau Ferro for the drawknobs and keyboard sharps. I was specifically trying to reproduce the look and feel of a Letourneau that I regularly play in Richmond. The very dark Pau Ferro wood with white lettering gives the contrast my aging eyes need to read them clearly. Phoenix was able to source the pieces/parts to make that happen.

For about a year, I visited and played over a dozen instruments from electronic builders and 5 builders of small house trackers. The decision to go with Phoenix wasn't based on cost, but rather their ability to produce a true custom organ to my specifications that sounded very close to wind blown pipes. A small tracker would certianly be great for the technique, but the two 50+ rank Phoenix organs will play the literature at home in a convincing way.

Although the organ can support up to four complete specifications, I decided to go with just a French Romantic and a Baroque design. The other two "organs" can be added at any time if tastes or sample availability change in the future. Deciding on a stop list that was historically accurate for both organs did take some time. I wanted the drawknobs to select the same stops on both organs, but in the end, that didn't work out. Since the organ is in my home and not a church, I decided to only engrave default stop names on the drawknobs. I know I will here a French Montre on the Romantic spec and a German Principal on the Baroque one. 95% of the time, they are the same on both specs - IE: a reed is a reed - except sometimes its a Cornet.

Wayne Hare, CAGO

**Guest** · 11-19-2005, 06:20 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

We welcome everyone to Mardi Gras this year! Why wait? The city suffered far less than the surrounding areas. While we will need a full year to have those areas looking much better than they have in close to 100 years the garden district and french quarter look wonderful as always. Halloween weekend there were close to 10,000 in the quarter and W hotel. I would still be there if 5 oak trees had not fallen through my house. Again, keep your mardi gras plans for 2006. Watch in the next few weeks for super deals on flights and hotel rooms!

**clumber** · 11-20-2005, 06:49 PM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

Absolutely beautiful woodwork, Wayne.... and I'm sure with Don's samples that you will have a very very fine instrument! You've obviously done your homework in making this puchase, and you should have a wonderful and fun filled December after it gets installed...

Andy

**Guest** · 11-23-2005, 08:26 AM

Re: New Phoenix Organ/Advice on Stop List

What no Tuba Mirabilis??? !!!!

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