Allen system 601-D MOS 1 organ

[dswasley]

Hello All, my name is Don and I'm a new member to the Organ Forum. I joined this group because I'm currently negotiating the purchase of the above-captioned organ from a church in Denver that hasn't used it in a few years for the sum of $500. They know what the current value of the instrument is from the local Allen rep [$1,000-$1,500] but they've had it sitting for quite a while and I think they just want to get it out of the way so they've tentatively accepted my offer. They had it serviced a couple of years ago and everything works fine. They have a Hammond organ that they use regularly. According to the music person that I talked to, the church has embraced a more contemporary form of worship within the last several years and also the organists/pianists that played the organ regularly have since either passed on or retired. The current group of musicians don't know how to play the Allen [I personally read this as they're afraid to play it or don't understand it [stops, couplers, card reader, etc.] enough to make music on it or both] so it just sits in the sanctuary off to the side covered with a sheet. I'm looking forward to working with all of you as this project progresses forward. Too bad that you don't have an Introduction forum topic for new members that join so that they might introduce themselves before they proceed to post in the various forums, but each to his own I suppose. In the other forum that I frequent, the Professional Car Society, they have one of these.....Anyway, it's good to be here and will probably get to know everyone that frequents these webpages and from what I've seen, there are TONS of valuable info available!!! Hopefully I don't offend anyone with my remark about an Introduction forum topic...and if I have, I apologize...:-B

Regards,
Don

[Admin]

Welcome. You'll find lots of good information and helpful people here.

[indianajo]

The most help I can do is give you something to think about. Buying an Allen enters one into a partnership with one's local franchised Allen repairman. If you have plenty of money and no time to waste, I would think about buying a new Allen. Or a Roland Atlier or Rogers. It is more economic. You don't have to have someone in your house when the Allen man comes to call.
Old organs are full of capacitors that start leaking at 20 years. They don't leak on an unplayed organ, they only start leaking when you heat it up for a week or two. Allens are repaired by swapping PWB's or assemblies. These come from the factory, and are generally only available from your franchised allen dealer. Other models, us amateurs just replace the capacitors, and any collateral damage they caused. Your Allen repairman is not trained to do that, and the tests in his service manual are designed to diagnose which assembly is bad, not which component.
If your friendly Allen repairman will quote you a price for taking the organ to the shop, replacing every electrolytic capacitor over 10 years old, replacing all batteries and any damage from leakage, and cleaning all connectors etc, he is a worthy business partner. This will give you some idea of the actual cost of ownership for the first year. Ask for capacitors rated above 3000 hours service life. The high volume in sales replacement capacitors are, typically for America, rated for 500 hours or less which is about 4 hours per week for <3 years.
Admin and jbird larry tow and others are helpful for people with inoperative Allen MOS organs, but diy repair is something I prefer to do with a schematic diagram. Every little $.07 part can cause a problem, not just the common failure ones. Seeing all the parts at once on the same screen or page allows you to work your way through one part at a time efficiently.

[myorgan]

Don,

Welcome to the Forum, and I hope you are able to get the price you want. You're probably right, and will be able to get a good price--especially if they know it's going to a good home.

Regarding older Allens, you can see from my signature that I have a few, and have found them to be quite reliable, though none as old as the MOS you're considering. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions, and I'll help where I can. However, JBird604, Don60, Circa1949 and others are definitely the authorities when it comes to Allen repairs. I have completed most of the repairs on my Allens, and have had minimal assistance from the local Allen dealer/company.

Again, welcome and I hope you enjoy your stay here.

Michael

[Admin]

My Allen 965 left the factory in December 1981 and is still going strong. I've owned it for the past 15 years of its life and I've never had to call an Allen repairman because it has played day and day out without problem. It does not have leaky capacitors or batteries.

No electronic device manufactured in the past 25 years is designed to be repaired at the component level. It's just not practical to do so. The fact that Allen can still replace the boards used in your organ is not a detriment but a plus.

[dswasley]

A question about moving the 601-D

Anyone have an opinion about moving this heavy thing from the church to my home? What kind of things would one need? :o

[don60]

I would suggest hiring professional movers to get your new organ to your home. They own the necessary ramps, dollies, pads, and so on that make the job go quickly and minimize the possibility of damage to the instrument and the surroundings.

Allen parts and service are not cheap, but at least they are available! What other electronics manufacturer has committed to supporting essentially every product that they have ever made? Even Rodgers, which is usually thought of as a peer and direct competitor to Allen, has unofficially jettisoned certain of their problematic models and is unable to supply parts for them. Allen in my mind stands alone in ensuring the long-term performance of their organs and stands alone in producing organs that seem not to suffer from odd design flaws and quirks. I would not hesitate to purchase and enjoy any of their classical organs starting with the analog transistor models.

One of the posts above is not accurate in assessing the repairability or reliabilty of the MOS-1 models. True, the main computer board is not repairable in the field since it contains numerous proprietary MOS chips, but all other boards in the organ are completely documented to the component level in the service manual. Allen allowed and even encouraged field repairs to these boards, and most of the parts on them are commodity items. For example, I was able to fix a dead "keyboard array" board for another Forum member by replacing one 50 cent transistor available at Radio Shack. (And the service manual helped me to find this problem.)

Allen generally avoiding using large-value electrolytic capacitors in their digital organs except in the power amplifiers. I would not worry about capacitors drying out and definitely would not ask a technician to replace any preemptively.

(the other) Don

[NoTalent]

Anyone have an opinion about moving this heavy thing from the church to my home? What kind of things would one need? :o

Yeah, make sure it will fit through all the doors it needs to go through, remembering that interior doors are generally narrower than exterior doors. I don't know the depth of this console but, if it's greater than 36", it's wider than most doors, unless you have patio doors. Also, it will be at least 5' long, so make sure you have enough room to turn it into a room, if you need to.

Some people here will say that you can get it around by turning it on its side but remember that will take more muscle power.

Greg

[myorgan]

Anyone have an opinion about moving this heavy thing from the church to my home? What kind of things would one need? :o

WARNING! L-O-N-G POST! You may experience injury due to this advice.:embarrassed:

I moved my first organs with a 5x8 U-Haul and two 4-wheel dollies you get at a big-box hardware store. I have a fused back, but was able to lift one end at a time while another person (usually my wife) put the dolly under each end--we just had to be careful of the organ tipping (they tend to be front-heavy). Three people (or more) are preferable. I am not that heavy or large, so size shouldn't be a problem, but hefty fellows (or ladies) will help. Also, be careful the music rack will fit under the opening/door of the U-Haul. Some need to be removed.

Later, I made wheeled platforms for two of my organs. One used 2x6's and the other used 2x4's and were covered by plywood, carpet padding, and carpet. I make my platforms hinged in the middle so they can move through double doors and I never have to move them off the rolling platforms (pictured below).

Depending on your floor, I used a piece of carpeting remnant, heaavy blanket, or a doormat, to place one end of the organ on to pivot it into position. To ascend or descend a few stairs (2-5 or 6), most people don't think of using leverage to get the organ up or down the stairs--they try to lift the whole thing! If you pivot the organ on end, then bring it down with the bottom of the organ on the stairs, then you only have to lift the bottom end for a few stairs, if that, and allow it to balance on the top stair. Obviously, once the organ has reached the center point, it will balance on the top stair without too much effort while you place the dolly under the upper end. To go down the stairs, just push it until it balances on the top stair, then let gravity take over!;-) (just kidding) Just be careful the stair treads don't take off any of the casters. You could use a blanket there too, but that can be more of a problem if it bunches up.

As far as depth, the D-console is 35.5" deep (probably the console you have) and 66" wide. That leaves 1/4" on either side clearance in a 36" doorway. An Allen B-console is not as deep, and is only 32" deep by 62" wide. The 2-manual D-console will probably weigh over 500 lbs. The pedals will weigh approximately 100 lbs., and the bench will weigh approximately 50 lbs. If the speakers are HC-12s, they will be approximately 80 lbs. each. For my speakers, I made platforms from a piece of plywood with 4 wheels, covered with carpet (no padding), and used half-round as a lip to keep the speakers on the platform. The speakers will be slightly longer when laid on their sides, as compared to two speakers standing side-by-side. I usually put 3-4 speakers per platform. Where my organ is located right now, I keep the speakers on the platform (out of sight), and they sound fine (also pictured below). There's another thread on the Forum about Speaker Placement.

Furniture padding and ratcheted tie-down straps are a MUST!!! You don't want any damage to occur in the move. Better yet, a pair of organ trucks/dollies with straps would be optimal--that's my dream in the future!

Oh, I almost forgot--I recently purchased a full sheet or two of sacrificial thin plywood. I lay this plywood over cracks and crevices to keep from damaging the floor in doorways, or floors with cracks in them (like stone floors). I also use them to help get the organ started on the ramp of my enclosed trailer.

I would estimate that in the last 5 years or so, I've moved my organs over 30 times (once to a concert and once back, or from one location to another, etc.). It's important to note that others on the Forum will disagree with one or more parts of my post, but my Dad always said, "Opinions are like noses--everyone has one."

I hope this helps pair a good organ with an even better musician.

Michael

P.S. If you need photos or any other information about what I've said, please feel free to send me a Private Message.
P.P.S. My wife says this is TMI (too much information), but I'd rather provide more than less.

[Larrytow]

Hi Don,

Congrats on the new to you Allen ! And, welcome to the forum. There is a lot of collected wisdom here between all of us. All you need to do is ask questions, and more than likely someone has had experience with a particular issue or project.

That 601-D is a fine organ still today. Not as nice as the newest ones in sound quality, but very respectable all the same. All the MOS organs benefit from adding reverb when used in a small room. There are several ways to do that fairly easily. Other issues that you may find with it are : needing new capture memory power supply batteries, and card reader lamps burned out.

As explained above ( and opposed to some folks opinions ), Allens of this era are quite repairable. "The other Don" is quite correct in his statements above.

As a guy afflicted with OAS ( Organ Acquisition Syndrome ), I have a bit of experience with moving large organs. Since you have a D model, that means that it is in the large traditional church console. That console is one of the finest you can get as far as quality of the construction goes. So, it follows that it also is rather large and heavy. You have various options as to the actual moving of it goes. Which one will work best for you depends on how far it needs to go, and the equipment you have available. You are in Denver; it is in Denver. How many miles do you need to go ? Being retired from owning a towing company, I tend to consider getting a flatbed tow truck as a good option for a in the area move. Most folks don't think of that, but getting a flatbed for a few hours is usually much cheaper than a regular moving company. That means however, that you will need to do some of the moving work yourself, as well as supervising the tow driver. Can't think of many tow truck guys that move organs often, besides myself. It works real well though.

Having four wheel dolly's available is pretty much required. Real moving blankets are good as well. Roll or Cary dollies can be used, but I prefer the 4 wheel ones instead. With those you can ratchet strap the console right to them. Get it on good wheels, and then you can move it easily.

I have an ADC6000-D, and it has been moved that way several times. Good weather on the day of the move is important of course.

Also, if everything inside the organ is attached and secured like Allen intended it to be, there is no reason they cannot be transported on their back. Checking that is easy enough; just take the back off and see what things look like inside.

Getting it into a home can present some issues, depending on your layout, door sizes, etc. The ADC D console that I have is 35 & 1/2 inches wide. I'm not sure if a two manual will be less or not, in the D console. Taking the top completely off of it reduces the width by a half an inch. Not a lot, but sometimes just enough. It can also be set on end and walked though a door opening ( if things are all secured inside ), just be careful to pad it well on the floor / door jamb, etc. When getting a big console moved though tight areas, I like to use 3M blue painters tape to protect the edges and so on, that may rub anywhere. It works pretty good for that, and it comes off with no residue or damage to the finish.

Of course there are those of us who just modify their homes / doorways / and rooms to accommodate large organs, but I don't expect everyone to be as crazy as I am.

As always, photos of where it is and where it is going to, will help us all advise you more intelligently.

What speaker setup are you getting with this organ ? Hopefully you are getting them with it ?

Here is a link to my old photo album in the legacy archive here on organ forum. There are photos in there of when I first got my ADC 6000 D , and how we used a flatbed to move it. Also there are some of how I cut my door jamb out to fit it in the house. On end would have worked there, but I wanted to make the door jamb into a removable section anyhow, for future organ moves. OAS makes one do unusual things at times . LOL

http://www.organforum.com/gallery/th...s.php?album=21

[dswasley]

Another question, again....

Guys, THANK YOU for the great information/opinions!! Hopefully I won't have to negotiate stairs with this thing @ 500 lbs!! I was thinking of inquiring of some local moving companies to either get some quotes on the moving costs or as to the purchase of some of their more worn furniture pads since I don't have any and attempt to move it myself with a small u-haul truck and some warm bodies!!! I refuse to use those thin, cheap U-haul pads [have used them in the past with moves and they won't stay in place and just plain suck at protecting just about anything]. Anyway, we'll see how things go as this project progresses...at this point I haven't even seen this organ yet except via Craigslist. I was going to post the link but apparently they took it down already upon my word of purchase. I was told that the amps/speakers are encased in a wood cabinet that's finished in the same wood as the console and are separate. My wife's been indisposed with a severe cold and I haven't had time to go see/play it yet but as soon as I do I'll post pictures..... I was thinking that I'd have some ugly utility type speakers to go with this unit but I guess this organ was ordered different from the standard church install when new. Anyone have experience or knowledge of this type of amp/speaker set-up? :-/

Don

[Larrytow]

Hi Don,

Hope your wife gets well soon. It's nice of you to be taking care of her like that, but don't snooze too long on going to see, and make the deal on the organ.

On a moving job like this, it is essential to go see the organ / location on one trip, and not expect to move it that day. You want to go see exactly how it is situated, where the speakers are ( up high perhaps ? ), what steps are involved, where the wiring is run and how, and generally get all the info you can, so that you can make an effective plan for moving it out.

Photos are obviously important, and take lots of them. Digital photos are cheap to take, and too many of them is irrelevant. The photos are not just to post here ( although we all love to see peoples new organs ), but so that you can review them when planning the move.

A good tape measure is handy as well. Sometimes churches get remodeled in the time between the organs install and now. So, occasionally you will find that you may need to do some door removal, or door frame removal to get it out. And obviously, make notes of everything you measure.

You can order your Allen organ in just about any configuration you want, when buying a new one. External amp racks are common on these models, but not finished to match ones. That is a neat option though. It also has the effect of making the console lighter weight with the amps out of it.

When you are there, find out the best times and days to do the move. In my experiences, weekdays usually are best for churches, as there is normally a secretary there then. A lot of churches have morning to mid afternoon hours only. Not usually till 5pm. Could be that is just around here though ?

TTFN, more later maybe.

[myorgan]

Photos are obviously important, and take lots of them. Digital photos are cheap to take, and too many of them is irrelevant. The photos are not just to post here ( although we all love to see peoples new organs ), but so that you can review them when planning the move.

Don,

Larry gave excellent advice about the photos. Lots of photos also provides provenance for the future of the instrument, as well as establishing condition of the instrument in case (God forbid), there is some sort of accident during the move. It also establishes the original setup of the instrument in case you decide to make modifications, for example, to add reverb or other features. When I do make modifications to my instruments, I always document that as well, so I can post the procedure here for others to view--but I've been a bit slack on that!

Finished speakers are great, as they will almost always fit in with any decor. For my 505-B, I had 4 finished speakers that sit on one side of the church with decorative grilles, and behind me, I have utility cabinets with black grilles. Needless to say, I prefer the finished speakers. I do wish I could find some more decorative grilles, though. Most people just throw them away because they do not fit their current environment.

Be sure you visit the instrument soon and close the deal. I've seen more than one organ slip through someone's fingers because of procrastination (including mine).

Michael

[dswasley]

Again, thanks for info guys. I'll give Jerry a call tomorrow and arrange to see it ASAP and TRY to remember to take a camera with me.....Just so you know, my wife suffers from several complicated medical issues and I have to put that above all else. These problems have been getting worse and all the doctors here in Denver just really don't know/care about her conditions......very frustrating here on my end...it also sometimes tends to cause friction between both of us. When that happens, I try to deflect it or if it gets real bad, just leave for a bit...this is FYI.

Don

P.S. I found another webpage posting for this unit since the CL post expired so you can get a look-see:

http://www.churchorgansofcolorado.com/used_allen.htm

I wish it had draw knobs instead of stop tabs but I can't complain for the price I'm getting it for...if you look at the bottom of the page you can see the date it was posted. It's been sitting for awhile!!

Don

[Larrytow]

Hi Don,

Let me just say that Of Course, Taking Care of Your Bride is the most important thing a guy can do, and everything else is secondary. I lost my Bride 10 years ago this month to a severe illness, and certainly can sympathize with you as to how it goes when taking care of people with complicated medical issues. I hope I did not offend you with my earlier comments.

The comments were meant to let you know that you are getting a really decent deal on this organ, and that several of us have had the experience of loosing out on one because of waiting too long to seal the deal. If there is one maxim to go by when you have encountered a seemingly good deal, it is this : Ya Snooze, Ya Looze ! But compared to taking care of my Bride, I would let any organ deal go if it came to that.

Just take the camera ! And use it liberally. A real one if you have it - even modern cell phone photos are not that good in my opinion. You Will be glad you did.

I looked at the link you gave, and yes indeed that is the large D size console. A nice organ for sure. The ad says it comes with two speakers. Someone will have to correct me if I am wrong, but I thought 2 computer organs were 4 channel ones. So, I'm thinking you should be looking for two more speakers and amps when you go to check it out. A total of 4 of each ? Someone could have installed a mixer to make just two channels though. Perhaps it is in a small church / room ?

As far as moving it goes, I'll wait till you report back with the specifics of the conditions you will encounter before giving more advice. However, if you want to see how an Allen 301-B can be moved on its back in a small trailer, here is a link to a photo album I just finished making tonight.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1066479...eat=directlink

The 301 is a smaller console depth wise ( possibly height too ? ), but the other dimensions are the same. The photos showing the rest of it may interest you too, as all the MOS1 organs are laid out in the same pattern. The 601 has more stuff in it, of course.

LOL on the wishing it were a Drawknob (DKC in Allen speak ) console ! I think we all wish all our church organs were.

Good luck on making the deal happen.