Time is Ripe for a MIDI Consul Only Maker

[thewingwillis]

If you want upgradeable sound bites/sampling, and a huge choice of custom sounds, and the ability to customise the audio quality to any budget, hasn't the time come when digital organ makers should just be making MIDI consuls, with the computing, sound software, amplification and speakering being after market options?

[arie v]

Hi,

Why should it be the digital organ manufacturers building consoles for hobbyists? What is there in it for them? The only way it makes sense for them is if it was high end custom manufacturing, in which case the numbers would be quite low. The problem with the roll-yer-own organs, is that everyone's concept is different, and also the demand is for really low pricing.

I tell you what - go into business with some friends and a friendly banker, and make them yourself. Now that was easy advice wasn't it.

BTW, there are several companies that already do this - companies such as Hoffrichter Orgeln from Germany.

AV

[mashaffer]

I agree that it doesn't make sense for organ makers but there is really a need for affordable midi hardware without any of the synth/DJ glitz. I suspect the lack of supply is related to the fact that there still isn't that much demand.

mike

[Admin]

Here's a link to some pictures of the Hoffrichter consoles and keyboard blocks

http://www.midi-organs.eu/html/pictures.html
http://www.hoffrichter-kirchenorgel.de/de/Index.htm

or you could buy a console from an organ supply house such as Klann
http://www.klannorgan.com/consoles.htm

[Momboc]

There are plenty of people using MIDI controllers (in some form of combination) as 'Organ consoles' for use with PC/MAC based organ software (e.g Hauptwerk, MidiTzer, etc)



The basic components are:
-Two or more Manuals
-A Pedalboard
-Some suitable Control surfaces (buttons, faders, knobs, tabs, thumb pistons, mod wheels, computer keyboards, mouse/trackball, touch screens etc)
-Foot controllers (expression pedals, switches, toe studs etc)
-A stand (and suitable casework?)
-A bench
-Accessories such as displays, power supplies etc

All of the above are already available as seperate MIDI components for an 'organ console'. What is lacking is an affordable, 'integrated' but flexible solution.

Assuming you could buy something that operated correctly with your software and looked and felt OK, what would you pay for it? Say like something below:

[thewingwillis]

I think the emphasis I put on my original post was misleading to me intentions; I know there ARE companies now making haupwerk consuls and complete systems. I was more likely saying that I think it's time existing guys (Allen, Rodgers, etc) whos sound samples are such that there is a demand for third party samples from haupwerk and the like, that they gave up and sold there organs with the hard drives clean so the purchaser could buy seperately quality sample to suoite there needs and pocket book.

[Hamman]

Oh man, I have a Klann console (Conn Custom 905). They are beautiful and built like a tank!! Heavy!

or you could buy a console from an organ supply house such as Klann
http://www.klannorgan.com/consoles.htm

[arie v]

I think the emphasis I put on my original post was misleading to me intentions; I know there ARE companies now making haupwerk consuls and complete systems. I was more likely saying that I think it's time existing guys (Allen, Rodgers, etc) whos sound samples are such that there is a demand for third party samples from haupwerk and the like, that they gave up and sold there organs with the hard drives clean so the purchaser could buy seperately quality sample to suoite there needs and pocket book.

Hi,

I don't think you make one wit of sense here. Allen, Rodgers or whoever makes and sells organs, believe that their product has musical merit. The fact that Hauptwerk and Jorgan, etc. exists does not change that. Telling these companies to forget about their musical abilities and just start making consoles, so that the user can just plug in samples of their own wishes is just not in the cards.

Now if you see a positive business prospect here, start your own company and become a market leader in supplying consoles to all your hobbyist friends.

The reason you don't see a huge movement in this area is that numbers are low, and not worth getting into. Also, with the virtual market, customers are all over the map when it comes to what they want, so there is lots of customization.

Besides, with most of the new digi organs out there, one can already add Hauptwerk to them. Just local off the internal stop and map it to a Hauptwerk stop.

Personally I think I know what you want. A fully integrated console driving Hauptwerk on the cheap. You are not likely to find what you want.

AV

[Clarion]

. . . hasn't the time come when digital organ makers should just be making MIDI consuls, with the computing, sound software, amplification and speakering being after market options?

No big deal! Phoenix, one of the few digital organ manufacturers who actually has the expertise and ability to do this kind of stuff has been doing this for years!

For voicing, you can choose one of Phoenix's own sound samples (wow!), which now includes a Willis set; OR

you can choose JOrgan or Hauptwerk already to go; Or you can go with a mere console, ready to install any system you wish!!

And . . . if you happen to have an old organ console of good quality, they will save you a lot of $$$ by rebuilding whatever needs to be rebuilt, and install your choice of keyboards and electronics.

Phoenix's most recent installation is a digital MIDI organ of the kind you have not been able to find:

http://phoenixorgans.com/featuredInstallations.php

[M1994]

No big deal! Phoenix, one of the few digital organ manufacturers who actually has the expertise and ability to do this kind of stuff has been doing this for years!

Let's not get out of hand here. Don't get me wrong, I think that Phoenix make some of the best instruments out there when it comes to digital organs (and at a price where it's basically a no-brainer). But I'd say what they have is the desire more-so than some sort of unique expertise or ability. If Allen and/or Rodgers felt it made business sense to them to build such systems, they would, and it would be a very uncomplicated thing for them to do. Throw simple on/off MIDI signals on their stop controls, and they're set. I'm sure they could manufacture (or have manufactured for them) a touch screen for stop controls. I don't mean to put down Phoenix (I'm a huge fan of theirs). I just find it inaccurate to say that making a MIDI only console is a complicated endeavour, and that Phoenix are more capable of building one than their rivals in the complete organ segment, rather they are simply more willing to do so.

All of that said I think that Phoenix are clever for expanding into that market. Very easily stackable manuals, and having played one of their organs, I'm sure they are of great quality as well.

To answer the OP, I know that Hauptwerk's website has links to manufacturers of just such consoles, and many options seem to be out there. As far as current entire organ companies dipping, or fully moving, into that market, it's quite unlikely (with the aforementioned Phoenix seemingly being unique in that sense). For home, I love Hauptwerk, and own my own license (which I also use with a laptop and a normal keyboard when hired to play at weddings at venues without an organ). For church use however, I don't know many organists who would want to deal with a PC/Mac based system during a service. Now as far as Allen and Rodgers making MIDI ready consoles, I think they believe (probably correctly) that the market is covered by existing companies, and the profit margins of these products are a little lower than what digital organ companies typically seek.

[Clarion]

I just find it inaccurate to say that making a MIDI only console is a complicated endeavour, and that Phoenix are more capable of building one than their rivals in the complete organ segment, rather they are simply more willing to do so.

M1994,
You not only took my statement entirely out of context, but the entire context and intent of this thread!! :-(

The intial query had to do with the absence of digital organ makers building MIDI consoles!

I did not say: "Phoenix are more capable of building (a MIDI console) one than their rivals"; but as a digital organ manufacturer; Although that would be an easy point to argue. Nothwithstanding, could you provide us with a list of so-called rivals who will not only build a MIDI console, but have the capability of and custom-engineering and augmenting the basic console to any degree of completion and sophistication desired?

And your list of digital organ manufacturers who are capable of doing this, even on a quasi competitive basis, are as follows:

1. Phoenix;

2. I dunno;

3. I give up!

:-(

[M1994]

M1994,
The intial query had to do with the absence of digital organ makers building MIDI consoles!

I thought the original post (and the original poster's second post, elaborating on his first post) was more to ask why Allen, Rodgers, and everybody else don't simply give up on sound generation altogether, and build consoles that are either MIDI controllers, or ready proprietary computers with blank memory ready to accept Hauptwerk sample sets (or some other system). The reason is simple: they are still selling organs, and the big companies like Allen and Rodgers would only enter such a market kicking and screaming.

My response to your post was mostly related to semantics. Your wording made it sound as if you implied that Phoenix has a unique ability to create products like they do, both MIDI controlling keyboard stacks/pedal-boards, and the Phoenix II PC based organs that they build. I was just stating to dispel confusion that people less informed on these topics might experience, that technically Allen and Rodgers are capable of developing such products, rather easily I'm sure, but choose not to. It would likely end up in them shooting themselves in the foot, by taking away sales from their much more expensive complete organs. Until churches buying new organs overwhelmingly begin choosing Hauptwerk, or similar solutions, Allen and Rodgers will not drop their complete organ offerings, nor will Phoenix, Johannus, Viscount. The MIDI/blank slate market is, I'm sure, mostly buyers of home organs, not churches.

Now, it can be said of Phoenix that their position in the market gives them a unique ability to enter that business and be effective there, on that I would certainly agree. In my post you quoted up there, I begin with "I just find it inaccurate to say..."....perhaps 'imply' would have been a better word than 'say' there. I'll pick apart my own wording as well if it's justified. Apologies if I came off harshly, I only meant to clear up any potential confusion.

[Clarion]

Your wording made it sound as if you implied that Phoenix has a unique ability to create products like they do, both MIDI controlling keyboard stacks/pedal-boards, and the Phoenix II PC based organs that they build. I was just stating to dispel confusion that people less informed on these topics might experience, that technically Allen and Rodgers are capable of developing such products, rather easily I'm sure, but choose not to.

Actually, Phoenix does have the unique ability to create products like they do.

When Rogers, Allen, etal start to assemble a new organ, they reach for the cookie cutter, and stamp out as many as they need.

When Phoenix starts to build a new organ, they reach for the drawing board, and build exactly what the customer wants. Each and every new organ is unique; individually designed and engineered, which does not mean that they don't use a whole lot of cut and paste in the process.

[M1994]

Actually, Phoenix does have the unique ability to create products like they do.

When Rogers, Allen, etal start to assemble a new organ, they reach for the cookie cutter, and stamp out as many as they need.

When Phoenix starts to build a new organ, they reach for the drawing board, and build exactly what the customer wants. Each and every new organ is unique; individually designed and engineered, which does not mean that they don't use a whole lot of cut and paste in the process.

True. However, other companies do have the ability to...fashion a new cookie cutter, if you will. You're making it sound as if the other companies have lost every employee who knows anything about electronics, and are just churning out the same organs from the late 90s (although having played a newer Allen, I jokingly wonder if that is indeed the case with them). You seemed to imply that they're completely incapable of doing this. I contend that they are merely unwilling, as all that would need to be done is rip out the sound generation hardware, and insert a MIDI controlled PC solution. Then, add a pair of touch-screens, and you're set.

I'm fairly sure it all boils down to this: When someone approaches Allen or Rodgers, it's because they have heard these big names, or perhaps their church has received flyers. In some cases, the person who services the current organ also is the local sales rep for one of the companies. The salesman then tries to sell them an organ. Allen and Rodgers fear that with a church whose organist is actually a pianist playing the organ, offering a Hauptwerk touch-screen instrument for considerably less money would be an offer that many would accept (and church committees trying to save as much money as possible, even when it's a bad idea, would accept as well).

On the other hand, when someone approaches Phoenix, they have heard of them by word of mouth...or perhaps this forum, as I did myself. Typically an organist would already have a picture in their mind of what they want...the picture in my mind never contains a touch-screen, that's for sure. I think it truly wouldn't look good in a church, and while I would have one at home, it would only be if financial constraints forced me that way. Not only the appearance, but the flexible nature of Hauptwerk, while quite well developed, is still not as "user friendly" if you will, then just sitting down at a ready digital organ, and playing it.

Allen and Rodgers fear losing organ sales by offering these products. Phoenix don't (and I think both sides are correct in their respective positions given the differences in how their businesses are run)

[Clarion]

I'm fairly sure it all boils down to this: When someone approaches Allen or Rodgers, it's because they have heard these big names, or perhaps their church has received flyers. In some cases, the person who services the current organ also is the local sales rep for one of the companies. The salesman then tries to sell them an organ.

Basically . . . if you are on the organ committee, and like all the rest of the committee, don't know squat about organs; you have the comfort and assurance that you can't go wrong buying an Allen or Rodgers.

Allen and Rodgers fear that with a church whose organist is actually a pianist playing the organ, offering a Hauptwerk touch-screen instrument for considerably less money would be an offer that many would accept (and church committees trying to save as much money as possible, even when it's a bad idea, would accept as well).

I would have a **BIG** problem with a church buying a Hauptwerk kind of organ as their primary instrument. While I believe that Hauptwerk etal organs are really great for home installations for hobby organ enthusiasts, I am of the opinion that they represent a bit of a kludge when it comes to a church organ.

Even for a home organ, I have a bit of a problem with being stuck with a JOrgan/Hauptwerk installation. For a home organ, I chose to not only go with the standard hardwired installation, but complete MIDI connectivity for keyboards, expression, pistons etal; just in case . . . But "just in case" never happened. After five years with this instrument, I love the basic Phoenix voicing so much that I've never been remotely tempted to connect MIDI setup.

On the other hand, when someone approaches Phoenix, they have heard of them by word of mouth...or perhaps this forum, as I did myself.

Same here!! Way back in 2007 when I embarked upon my quest for a new organ, I had never before heard the Phoenix name. But with unimaginable THANKS to this forum, I learned about the newbie in town: Phoenix!!
What a magnificent instrument!

Allen and Rodgers fear losing organ sales by offering these products. Phoenix don't (and I think both sides are correct in their respective positions given the differences in how their businesses are run)

In all fairness, I don't believe Phoenix considers their MIDI organs to be adding much to the direct profit line. Phoenix does not promote, or even acknowledge the availability of MIDI organs on their website. That's not something they are really into. Notwithstanding, they are willing to accomodate customers who wish to go this route; like . . . for the customer, what are the options? Knowing the people at Phoenix, I figure that it has a whole lot to with going the second mile. That's Phoenix!

With Phoenix, it's not always about making an extra buck; but often, just about making this world a better place. :-P There are people out there like that!