Allen Digital Model 225

[kfussy63]

I have an Allen Model 225 that came with two HC 12 speakers (cross over). The organ has two amps and from the amps are 4 speaker cables. When I hook up the two cables that have the flat hooks on them, the left speaker bass speaker sounds but the right speaker doesn't. I have switched speakers to make sure the bass works on the other and it does. I'm not familiar with the wiring scheme and would like help in making sure I have the speakers hooked properly. I'm not sure about the remaining two wires that are coming from the amps.

Thanks,
Kevin

[jbird604]

Kevin,

The 225 has all the pedal stops in just one channel (the one labeled "flute" I think), so all your low bass will seem to come from that channel only. That might lead you to think that the other woofer is not doing anything at all, though it probably does provide a little bit of low end to the stops that use that channel. It is possible, of course, for a speaker to be blown, so if one of the woofers never seems to do anything regardless of which channel it is connected to, then it may be defective.

RE: the four cables. Perhaps the original installation of this organ had two more speakers. They could have been smaller cabinets that were used to direct a little of the organ sound toward the console or into the choir or something. Since you only got two speakers with the organ, just be sure that you connect one of them to each amplifier so you will hear all the organ stops. You can remove the unused cables. If you do not remove them, spread the spade lugs apart and tape them away from each other because if they accidentally touch you might damage the amplifiers.

[kfussy63]

John,

Thanks for the information. What you said makes sense to me. I know that both woofers work because I changed out speakers. Flute stops play from one channel and the Principle stops play on the other channel, so everything is working fine and it sounds good, minus the reverb. Would it be possible to hook up a sub woofer to it and have the cross over speakers run the remaining high and mid range sound? I have four HC 15 speakers from an Allen 123c. Could I hook two of them up to the other cables that are currently idle?

On the Allen 123C I have a Alesis reverb hooked up, which I plan on hooking up to the 225. I have all of things so that the crescendo pedal works from HLabs. Also plan on purchasing one of their DSP AMBIENCE PROCESSORS to add to the organ to give it a boost in its sound quality almost equal to a pipe organ. I'm sure this should not be difficult to hook up. I beleive that I need to take the feed off the DAC board into the processor and then out to the amps.

Again, thanks for helping me understand how the speaker set up is on the 225.

Kevin

[jbird604]

Kevin,

If you want to use two of the HC15 speakers, I'd recommend that you use both of the HC-12 cabinets you already have on the flute/pedal channel, since they have better bass output than HC15 cabinets. Then use two HC15 cabinets on the other channel (main), which will probably give you brighter reeds and mixtures since the HC15 has a boosted treble output. You may need to turn the volume down just a tad on the main channel after you do this, as the HC15's will play a few decibels louder overall than HC12's do. (It's only in the bass that HC15's have a limited output.)

You'll enjoy the organ even more if you add a reverb or the HLabs processor. I haven't done this myself, but people who've done it think it adds a lot of life to these organs.

[kfussy63]

John,

Thanks for your advice and input. I appreciate it much!!

Down the road I would like to also add a MIDI to the 225 and hook a Viscount Module to it.

Kevin

[kfussy63]

John,

Thanks for your advice and input. I appreciate it much!!

Down the road I would like to also add a MIDI to the 225 and hook a Viscount Module to it.

One of the unfortunate things is that there is no Celeste Effect on the 225. Is there a way to do that on the 225? I know that on my 123C, I turned down the Tremulant down all the way, which gave me the effect, somewhat. Are the Tremulants on the 225 independant from one division or are they controlled together? if so, I don't see where it its marked on the DAC board. I see that there are bass and treble wheels to set the the amount of bass and treble that you want per channel.

Kevin

[jbird604]

There is a tremulant speed adjustment on the keyboard array (KBA). I think you can do the same thing you did with your MOS1 Allen. Perhaps this will work even better once you get a reverb installed because the reverb will cause the slowly varying sharp and normal pitches to overlap.

[kfussy63]

John,

Thanks!

Happy New Year!
Kevin

[myorgan]

If you want to use two of the HC15 speakers, I'd recommend that you use both of the HC-12 cabinets you already have on the flute/pedal channel, since they have better bass output than HC15 cabinets. Then use two HC15 cabinets on the other channel (main), which will probably give you brighter reeds and mixtures since the HC15 has a boosted treble output.

John,

Could the HC12 & HC15 be wired one mixed pair for each channel, as long as the polarity is reversed in the HC15? That way, he could get the best of both worlds out of both channels without changing the inputs, etc.?

Just curious.

Michael

[jbird604]

That's always possible and wouldn't hurt to try that. I was afraid to try to explain the polarity issue, not knowing his degree of tech savvy. It might actually make for some interesting effects, especially if the 12's and 15's are separated by 8 or 10 feet so as not to introduce any phase cancellations at the crossover points (which are radically different between the two speakers).

However, if he wants maximum bass (and he mentioned wanting a subwoofer) keeping the two HC12's on the pedal channel is probably a good idea.

Did you mix 12's and 15's on the same channel with one of your Allens?

[myorgan]

John,

I didn't think MOS-2 instruments were sold with HC-14 or HC-15 speakers at all? Correct my feeble memory, but if I remember right the Allen speakers are:

	HC-12	HC-14	HC-15
Tweeter	1	1	1
Midrange	2	1	1
Woofer	1	1	1
Port	None	Near tweeter	In corner
Speaker Arrangement	Tweeter/Midrange horizontal	Offset alignment	Aligned vertically

By any chance, would you happen to have the crossover charts for the HC-12, HC-14, HC-15, and other Allen speakers available? I've looked, but cannot find them.

It might actually make for some interesting effects, especially if the 12's and 15's are separated by 8 or 10 feet so as not to introduce any phase cancellations at the crossover points (which are radically different between the two speakers).

Good point. I had forgotten about the phase cancellation possibilities between the two speakers because of the differing crossover points from woofer to midrange. As you explained to me before with the tweeters, there shouldn't be any issues at those pitches because of how short the wavelengths are. Sometime, I'm going to have to try mixing the speakers with my ADC-4300 when I have it installed with doubled speakers. If nothing else, for $#!+$ & giggles.

Did you mix 12's and 15's on the same channel with one of your Allens?

On the ADC-4300, with all 6 channels now being separate (Gt & Pd used to share), I presently have:

• Channel 1 (Swell)--HC-15
• Channel 2 (Swell)--HC-15
• Channel 3 (Pedal 32' & 16' Bourdons)--HC-12 w/crossover for the 32' to go to a subwoofer (B-40 or B-20--I have both speakers)
• Channel 4 (Pedal 16' Diapasons and above)--HC-15
• Channel 5 (Great 8' and above)--HC-15
• Channel 6 (Great 16' and above)--HC-12

This arrangement has substantially helped the voicing of the instrument. Having the HC-15 on the Diapason 16' of the Pedal has lightened the tone by quite a bit (it was too bassy before), and it has made the Lieblich Gedackt 16' truly as light as it should be. Before, it was almost as strong as the Diapason 16' in the Pedal or even the Bourdon 16', and to get those stops to sound properly, I would have had to turn down the gains on the entire organ. I had even taken the Bass Lift card out of the loop--to no avail.

The only shared voice between an HC-12 and HC-15 right now is the IV Mixtur in the Great, and I've noticed it is voiced with the high side on one channel, while the low side is on the other channel. I've been able to reduce some of the screechiness of the Gt. Mixtur IV as a result of using the HC-12 on one channel and HC-15 on the other.

I've noticed no phase cancellation issues, but the speakers are right next to each other while in storage. Later in January, I will be using the organ for a performance in a venue seating over 1,000, so I'll check for phase cancellation at that point. BTW, I use presence projectors on the 4 manual channels right now, but hope to include the pedal soon. I think they will help the high side of the pedal, as it presently gets a bit lost and too "hissy" if I up the treble too much on those voicing cards.

I apologize to Kevin for hijacking this thread (sort of), but Allen's speakers, their crossover points, their installation, uses, and possible phase cancellation are moving targets. That said, however, they are perhaps some of the more friendly organ speakers out there to deal with--other than carrying them (at 80lbs. each!).

Michael

[don60]

Michael,

The HC-12 has two mids and one tweeter. The mids are 4 ohms each and are connected in series; an Allen-approved repair should one of them fail is to use a single, more-readily available 8 ohm mid in place of one of them, leaving the other installed just to plug up the hole and maintain the proper interior volume. These drivers, incidentally, are an obsolete but very good part from Peerless and ought to be refoamed or reconed rather than discarded if possible. The closed back ("speaker-in-a-can") arrangement is essential to prevent the low frequencies from reaching the back of the cone.

You must have an old version of the HC-14. On my HC-14s and 15s, the driver and port arrangements all match your description for the HC-15 with the drivers stacked and the port in the lower right corner.

Don

[myorgan]

Don,

Thank you for the correction--I have corrected the chart. I actually have a fellow who re-cones all my mid-ranges and woofers. I have a couple of spares since I purchased 2 new woofers for my first organ. I was using it in a concert, and I had 2 woofer surrounds go. Fortunately, I had 4 spare speakers so I was able to switch things out in time. Allen is SLOW on shipping--even when I told them the situation!

Yes, I must have the old configuration (check my photos of the speakers in the Gallery). I just checked Allen's page, and they list the HC-14 and HC-15 as if they are synonymous. I wonder if the crossovers changed with the configuration (earlier vs. later HC-14s)?

Michael

[jbird604]

Michael,

While Allen has maintained the general design of the HC15/14 over the years, there have been several variations. AFAIK, the speaker drivers themselves have remained the same (though if that Peerless midrange is NLA, I don't know what they use for it today). And the box has always been the same size, though the crossover has been moved from the front to the back.

I'm not a stickler for detail and used to replace the Peerless with a readily available Pioneer midrange with a similar size back chamber. That unit has now become unavailable itself, and I've resorted to using a Pyle closed-back midrange without a "can" in the back. Sounds good to me, but to be honest I haven't done any critical listening to compare it to the original. BTW, the midranges we see around here are usually terribly eaten up by foam rot by the time a church gets around to having us check them out. I have never attempted to re-foam one, but they look so damaged I don't know if I could.

The HC15/14/13/11 crossover has gone through numerous revisions, each more complex (and a little bit sillier, as I see it) than the last. I just happen to be a "minimalist" on the subject of crossovers -- one coil and one capacitor generally suffices for a given driver -- and I fail to see how adding a bunch of seemingly redundant capacitors and resistors to the circuit will make meaningful improvements worthy of the loss of efficiency.

Anyway, that's the opinion of one old cranky tech. Perhaps someone will clarify and maybe change my mind.

[myorgan]

BTW, the midranges we see around here are usually terribly eaten up by foam rot by the time a church gets around to having us check them out. I have never attempted to re-foam one, but they look so damaged I don't know if I could.

John,

My speaker guy does re-foam the midrange speakers for somewhere between $15-$25 each--I can't remember the last price I paid. John, I could send you one (or both), if you'd like to try one out. I know he does acoustical testing of the speakers to make sure they measure up to factory specs once he's done. He did that one time when I went to pick up a woofer, and he wasn't getting the correct response from the speakers, so he held the speaker and re-did the job for free. Good business move!

Actually, what I'm looking for is the frequency response curve, sensitivity, and other specs of those speakers. If you look on Allen's website, you'll see such a devil for the B-20 speakers, but not for the HC-14/15 speakers, or for the B-40. The HC-12s aren't even listed any more. http://www.allenorgan.com/www/produc...akers/b20.html

Thanks for the information.

Michael