HELP from fellow organists and music directors

[musicman923]

I am curious what you would do if you were music director at a church.

What I would like to see happen is the following:

We currently have a 3 manual Rodgers organ on the floor underneath the first balcony of the church where I'm music director. The organ speakers are above me sitting on the pews that are in the balcony while the swell speaker division is on the opposite side of the balcony in a horse-shoe balcony set up. Since I am under the balcony I do not get a true sound of what the organ sounds like in the main dome of the church and always getting complaints that I'm playing to loud (blah blah blah!!!!) They complain that principal chorus is too loud! I would like to propose the idea of the getting the organ moved into the first balcony with my back facing the congregation and having the speakers moved to different locations, so that it would sounds like one instrument and not two instruments at opposite sides of the room.
Is this a very expensive idea?? If so, how much would it cost in your honest opinion?

The church has so little money, we couldn't even get enough to tune the real pipe organ in the second balcony at the cost of 500 bucks.

There is a member of the church who moves hot tubs and large items, is it possible that he would be able to move the organ into the first loft?? As you know with electric instruments, the pedal board comes off and it's just the main console that would have to get moved. A wooden platform would need to be built for the organ to be flat on and a couple of the pews would have to be taken out to fit the organ and choir members in place.

I can then have my other organ friend come in to help move speakers and wires etc..

What would you do if you were me?? How is it possible to make this change happen with literally no money to do anything with? (It's so frustrating at times!!)

I think if we can get the speakers moved around and get the sound more from the back of the church instead of the front, it would make a world of difference. Cause everything is coming from that first balcony in the front instead of the back where it would not be blasting the choir/congregation.

Your Thoughts??

It would be easier if you were able to actually see and hear what it sounded like but I tried to give you the best description as possible.

[toodles]

The console could be moved, but how easy that is depends upon access to the balcony. If there is a wide staircase with no switchbacks, it's pretty easy if you have enough people to do the lifting. If there are switchbacks, or a spiral staircase, you have to take the console up over the balcony rail. There are lifts to do this, and rental might be expensive.

If exiting wires can be used, fine, but if you need new wiring, it will add several hundred dollars, probably.

Another thought is to set up a wireless microphone where you want to hear the sound and listen at the console through headphones. It would not be more than a few hundred dollars to do this. If course, you could quickly test this with a wired system when the church doesn't have the congregation present. At least it would give you a sense if it works or not.

[indianajo]

I would put a couple of car radio speakers in the organ ($10 each @ goodwill) or beside the organ in a nice box, and build a couple or three LM3886 IC amp channels (<$100) to drive them. You can also get leftover stereo packaged speakers in a "walnut" enclosure at the charity resale shop for $20 each. Mostly old stereos die because of the electrolytic caps, I would'nt buy the radio/amp unit unless I was going to recap it. Then I would set the volume pots on the monitor amps in the organ, to reflect the volume upstairs, by holding some keys down with a roll of coins, and walking back and forth between the congregation pews, and the organ player position. You need to pick the signal up for the volume pots from the "speaker out" terminals of the amps, to reflect what the swell pedal etc is doing. The idea is not to equal the volume on the mains, but to reflect them so the player knows what is going on. You'd have to buy a $200 used speaker to even reflect the 16' bass notes, more for a subwoofer for any 32' notes. I would include a complainer in the volume setting session to get some buy in on the volume levels. A lot of people really don't like music, especially the artistic kind. Plainsong chorales only, with the emphasis on the Word of God. JS Bach had the same problem, that is how he ended up composing for 4 harpsichords in a coffee shop.
If I was going to move a Rogers upstairs, I would rent a forklift, and buy some slings and things to dangle it, so you could swing it over the rail. Lot cheaper than finding 4 hefty guys to carry an organ, these days. Put plywood on the floor to protect it from rubber marks.
If you want some links to kit suppliers for the amps, PM me, most people are not do it yourselfers. If you had a budget, you could buy a couple of used self powered Peavey KB300's as monitors, but they are about $200 each . There are versions that have some sort of internal mixer, you might be able to get away with one of those while picking up the 3 or 4 outputs into the mixer channels. There are also intensely obsolete monaural output mixers by Peavey, Electrovoice, Ampeg and others, made to sit on top of a guitar amp head. These run about $40 when you can find them (craigslist, kiji etc). Mixers aren't too cursed by bad electrolytic caps like power amps are. If you can get a powered mixer under $100 with amp channels great, but not over 15 years old due to the e-cap problem. The $40 mixers, you need a powered speaker, or a one channel amp and a speaker. Sometimes there are bargains in used PA amps with one channel blown, $50 or so. A real bargain in decent speakers is the triangular "monitor" version that sit on the floor. Bands are running away from them for the in-the-ear monitor. I got my Peavey monitor speaker with 15" woofer (for 55 hz) and 2" horn probably for about $40. The pro monitors are black with metal grills however, and are found really offensive by some church members who committed too many sins they regret in bars when the were young. Might be safer to stay with the inferior sounding walnut veneer consumer speakers from the charity resale shop. Less likely to be stolen, also, and easier to replace if the decorating committee moves them next to the trash bin for the Christmas pageant.

[Ursa]

I honestly can't foresee renovating your Rodgers as described above coming in at less than the $500 needed to tune your pipe organ.

Around here (Michigan), it's customary to take second collections whenever unbudgeted repairs are needed, or an improvement to the worship facility is desired. Or perhaps you could establish a "Historic Organ Preservation" type of society within the congregation or the greater community to raise funds to get your pipe organ back in working order. Is this the only--or the best--pipe organ in your community, or something really unique? Make it a town landmark!

I think this also needs to be said: If your congregation simply doesn't value organ music enough to make a $500 project happen, it may be time to rethink the whole music program.

[Guest]

You might rethink the speaker placement. I would suspect relocating the speakers in a thoughtful manner coupled with sensitive voicing should be satisfactory ... moving the console to the balcony would not be inexpensive in $$$, labor and risk. While "monitor" speakers of some type could be used, I would avoid these keeping in mind we are trying to emulate a pipe instrument and, often, the pipe console isn't necessarily in the "ideal" listening location. Having the console too close to the speakers will have the same problem as too far, just in reverse! Do you have a sequencer on the Rodgers so might record yourself and then go the main dome so might be better able to set your reference levels? Are the speakers facing out into the sanctuary? Can they be aim upward for more indirect sound ?

Good Luck .... ultimately, your satisfaction with the installation will be reflected in the music the congregation will hear and I suspect this could have a very positive effect on the music ministry.

[Ursa]

You might rethink the speaker placement. I would suspect relocating the speakers in a thoughtful manner coupled with sensitive voicing should be satisfactory ... moving the console to the balcony would not be inexpensive in $$$, labor and risk. While "monitor" speakers of some type could be used, I would avoid these keeping in mind we are trying to emulate a pipe instrument and, often, the pipe console isn't necessarily in the "ideal" listening location. Having the console too close to the speakers will have the same problem as too far, just in reverse! Do you have a sequencer on the Rodgers so might record yourself and then go the main dome so might be better able to set your reference levels? Are the speakers facing out into the sanctuary? Can they be aim upward for more indirect sound ?

Good Luck .... ultimately, your satisfaction with the installation will be reflected in the music the congregation will hear and I suspect this could have a very positive effect on the music ministry.

Those are great points I overlooked. Reorienting the extant speaker array for a more indirect sound could be just the ticket. The only investment to be made would then be time and effort. Perhaps some sound-absorbing materials in strategic locations could further refine the installation.

I've performed on an Allen not unlike the original poster's Rodgers--the "Swell Box" is on one side of the loft and the Great/Choir output is on the opposite side. Both speaker arrays were front- and upward-firing, installed at the forward edge of the loft, and did not blast directly at the choir. This installation certainly isn't the greatest Allen ever built, but it does wonders for a choir when they can hear themselves sing.