are we crazy???

[gebohmusic]

Our church is needing to replace our 25 year old analog Rodgers organ. We are beginning to have major issues with the instrument and we have been told that repairs would be very costly at this point and that it might exceed the value of the organ.

Due to budget restraints and other on-going financial obligations we can not purchase a "new" Rodgers/Allen/etc. organ.

Our Rodgers is getting to the point that it could go out any day. I do not want to keep having it repaired and putting money into it.

We are considering a pre-owned Allen MDS-26 organ with the Allen MDS Expander module and two external speakers for $9500 plus an additional $1900 for installation/two additional speakers/voicing.

We have also looked at a Wicks Royal Classic II being offered for $15,000 including audio/delivery/voicing. We went to play/hear this instrument and we were expecting this to be the answer --- but it did not sound right. Something was off -- and a cipher happened two times. This organ is supposedly "new"...... This was at a Rodgers dealer. I just have a bad feeling about this.......

We also have checked out a Viscount Vivace 60 deluxe -- it sounded ok --- but again, I was not blown away.

As I mentioned earlier --- we do not have the funds -- nor do I think our congregation would go for raising $35,000 plus for a new organ comparable to the stop list, etc. on our old Rodgers.

The Allen MDS-26 had the best sound to us --- even though this instrument was built in 1994. Are we crazy for considering this instrument over two "new" instruments??? It is being sold by an individual who loaned it to her church for 5 years. The organ is in excellent condition.

Thanks

[TCJ]

If the organ sounds better than the new ones, I wouldn't say you're crazy at all. But that's as far as my expertise goes!

As for raising money, your situation sounds like the same thing I've run into in a lot of places, both personally and by hearing about it from others. The church/congregation/council/pastor never wants to pay for an organ. If that organ lasts for, say, thirty years, then you've got a little more than $1000 invested per year, plus tune-ups and repairs as needed. It really isn't so expensive when looked at that way. If there truly is a will to get something then people will find a way to pay for it. For instance, a church around here needed 1 million dollars to pay off a loan. They managed to pay it off in about six years. This is not a large church with a huge income, but a very small parish in a small town. They have a small collection and don't have a large congregation, but they found a way to raise the funds that they needed.

[arie v]

Hi,

My guess is the Wicks Royal Classic should sound the best of the organs mentioned. But if it didn't sound right, and there were issues, then I am not sure I would go for it. The organ is basically the same as the Viscount Prestige 60 in a better cabinet, and unique to Wicks samples. It may also be a bit of an orphan, as I'm not sure Wicks is in a position to provide full support for this instrument. A Rodgers dealer selling this also does not inspire confidence in this one.

The Allen looks to be a reasonable organ for a reasonable price. Allens of that vintage are considered fairly young organs, in the fact that they, at least back then were built to last. No reason to believe that this organ couldn't be serviceable for another 15 to 20 years. Also, the MDS series were for the most part good sounding instruments. Should sound better than the current Rodgers you have.

AV

[Snowbandit]

A 25 year old Rodgers analog isn't going to have much real world value. A few hundred dollars at best and that's if it's in perfect working order. It's pretty easy to get more than the value of the instrument in repairs so, your tech is probably correct on that point. The service call for replacing a couple transistors and a capacitor will cost more than the organ's worth. Still, these organs are usually quite repairable and, unless it was struck by lightning or suffered some other catastrophic event, probably can be fixed for much less money than a newer one will cost. I would suggest getting a second opinion on the estimated repair costs before throwing good money after bad.

If the church is looking to upgrade their organ at this time because the old one is inadequate, that's a different issue. All too often these instruments are being junked in favor of something newer that isn't really going to do the job any better.

[jbird604]

I second what Snowbandit said. A 25-year-old Rodgers (late 1980's) should be repairable and repairs should cost far less than replacing it. A lot of techs don't understand or enjoy troubleshooting these instruments and may tend to over-estimate the difficulty and cost of repairs, but in my experience these organs are rather easy to fix and generally give good service and nice sound if properly installed and voiced.

Your statement that you're beginning to have major issues with it tells me that something is happening that sounds quite catastrophic, but the truth is there are a number of rather easily repairable issues that produce horrendous-sounding symptoms. It may seem that the organ is on its last legs when all it needs is a well-placed soldering iron on a few transistors! The only way to find out is to consult a technician who really knows these organs and their common faults. Perhaps your local technician does know all this and has determined that the problems are worse than I think they are. He or she is in a better position to determine that than I am since I haven't seen the organ, but I would at least ask and/or get a second opinion.

The MDS Allen would be from the mid-90's. It's a nice organ, and has superb digital sound and a lot of good features that weren't available when your Rodgers was built, so it may be worth considering just for the upgrade. Personally, as a tech, I'd take an Allen MDS over any Viscount or Wicks or other European import even if new, but then I'm a former Allen salesman and a bit biased.

Of course, your church's needs and requirements should be evaluated before deciding on anything -- how many stops and channels you need, how many speakers, what kind of features are important, etc.

BTW, what is the model number of the existing organ? I might even be interested in picking it up if you wind up junking it and if you're not more than a couple states away from me.

[circa1949]

That's a rather high (but not completely unreasonable) price compared to what that series of MDS organs would reach on ebay; but, when you gotta have it now, you gotta have it now! Similar models have sold for $3000-$7000; the latter was before the 2008 recession for an organ with 4 fully finished speakers. If you're going to spend that much, you might as well make an offer to Jbird for his MDS-45, which is a somewhat more advanced, albeit earlier, model.

Our church is needing to replace our 25 year old analog Rodgers organ. We are beginning to have major issues with the instrument and we have been told that repairs would be very costly at this point and that it might exceed the value of the organ.

Due to budget restraints and other on-going financial obligations we can not purchase a "new" Rodgers/Allen/etc. organ.

Our Rodgers is getting to the point that it could go out any day. I do not want to keep having it repaired and putting money into it.



Thanks

[hybridlover]

For what it's worth, I would second JBird's opinion, and try to get a second opinion, before deciding to rid yourself of the Rodgers. I say this from experience, as I had played, in a previous parish, an early 1980's Rodgers 250 (pipe and analog). We experienced a number of similar issues to what you are mentioning, and retrospectively, I wish we had more fully investigated the possibility of repairing what was there first. Another option, if budget is a concern would be to consider replacing the analog voices with Hauptwerk, or even considering the Artisan digital system. This, would of course, require midification of the console, etc.

As to whether there will be parts/service available for the Wicks Royal Classic, before ruling it out, you might contact Mark Wick at wicks organ (they are still in business, and he'll be honest with you). I have no interest, financial or otherwise, in the Wicks company, but in past dealings with them, have found Mark to be honest and quite helpful, even though it never resulted in him making a sale to us. That says a lot.

[bmcgrath]

Unfortunately the ability of the service techs is critical with these instruments. After 10-15 our Rodgers 110, vintage 1971, in Massachusetts developed a strange problem where the flute stops would drop in volume substantially with the onset of winter, then return to normal in spring. Adjusting the voicing to full on wouldn't get it loud enough. Not there during the day, I'd mention in my note to the service tech who had been called out for other issues such as individual note not sounding, but nothing ever happened. This dragged on for years. Then Rodgers changed service techs. The replacement tech fixed the minor problem for which he was called, then fixed my flute problems, serviced and tuned the entire instrument. He arrived at 3pm, didn't leave until 11pm, and charged only $300! The organ was like brand new even though 20 years old! I couldn't believe it! Had it not been for this talented service tech (who unfortunately is now retired), I'm sure the problem would still exist.

[jbird604]

I'm curious as to the outcome at the original poster's church. Did the church buy something or get the Rodgers fixed? As I mentioned, I might even be interested in the old organ (dead or alive) if you're not too far away.

When Rodgers was building these serial-keyed analog organs in the 80's, I was an Allen salesman and I thought Rodgers organs were terrible. I'd go out and hear one that my competitor had installed and just be appalled that a church had paid good money for that! ....... But ...... fast-forward 30 years and my attitude has changed!

Since I got completely out of sales and became a full-time servicer, and especially since I became the official servicer for both Allen and Rodgers in my state, I have developed a whole new appreciation for the 1980's Rodgers organs. Now that I've had to learn how they work, studying the schematics and literature, doing extensive troubleshooting and repairs, I've decided that Rodgers was actually doing some pretty darn good work back then.

I said in another thread a while back how amazed I am to go back to organ installations that I first listened to 25 or 30 years ago, and find that my reaction to a given install is completely different. Organs that I thought sounded great back then sometimes sound pretty bad to me now, and conversely, some installs that I thought were poor now sound amazingly good. What has changed? Only my perspective.

When I was selling Allen, I suppose my ears were accustomed to the distinctive Allen sound and I found the Rodgers organs foreign to my ears, thus inferior. Now that I go back and listen without any financial stake in it, I would like to think that I am more objective. What makes all the difference is not which brand an organ is, but how well the installation was done, and particularly how much attention was paid to the voicing and finishing.

Now, I still don't much care for the combination pipe/analog jobs that Rodgers did back then, at least after they started making their own pipes. I find that some of those pipes don't stay tuned worth a hoot, and tend to be poorly voiced and finished, often being shockingly mis-matched to the electronic voices. But when I get to re-do a 1980's Rodgers install and disable the pitiful two-rank pipe set, add some audio to beef up the electronics, and re-voice it to sound as grand as it was supposed to sound, I come away very pleased with the sounds I get.

All that to say, I hope that this church and others with 1980's Rodgers organs will not fall for the "not worth fixing" argument unless there is truly a good reason to replace one. As I said above, there are some very minor and easily fixed issues in the power supply sections of these organs that can make an organ sound like it's going to quit any minute now. But junking an organ on account of an easily fixed problem would be like junking your car just because it needed a tire or a battery.

I certainly wouldn't discourage any church that can afford it from buying a new organ if the old one has become inadequate or if there are truly major problems, or if there is a strong desire to have a modern MIDI implementation. We need churches buying new organs to keep the business healthy, which benefits us all. But there is usually no need to declare an organ less than 30 or 35 years old from one of the major builders as "not worth fixing."

[gebohmusic]

Hello,

After much prayer and thought -- our church decided to go with the Allen organ. We are VERY happy with the decision. I honestly didn't know how bad the Rodgers sounded (and I own a Rodgers at home) until the newer Allen was installed in our sanctuary.

Our Rodgers served us very, very well for many years ---- but the issues were too many and costly. It was honestly falling apart.

The Allen Organ dealer in our area that installed the Allen organ that we purchased took away the Rodgers and the speakers. It was important to the properties committee to get the Rodgers out of the building as quickly as possible and not have it sitting out in a hallway or corner somewhere.

GH

[davidecasteel]

I'm sure we are all pleased that you have resolved the situation satisfactorily. It would appear that the decision was well received and the instrument properly installed.

David

[jbird604]

Yes. An MDS 26 is a wonderful organ. We service one in a nearby church and I have often opined that it would be one of my favorite Allen models of all time. W-5 technology was (and is) very good indeed. You got a good deal on it too.

My long-winded defense of the 1980's Rodgers still stands. I think those organs are under-appreciated, perhaps because many were poorly installed and installers did not take advantage of all the voicing possibilities. I hope your dealer will get it fixed and pass it on to a worthy second owner!

[michaelhoddy]

I revoiced a 1980's analog Rodgers in a church in NYC a bunch of years back, and agree that the quality of initial installation and finishing left a lot to be desired, and have found this to be true in many of the other Rodgers from the same era I have played and heard. As we all know, a lot of electronic organs suffer from poor installations, but I think this trend brought out the worst in the Rodgers analog organs. The realism of the individual voices were never a great strength, but the ensemble could really get up and go with the right attention. Unfortunately, these were too often voiced either really weakly, or screechy and grating. Even a poorly-voiced Allen could have some appealing soft sounds or individual voices. So this left the Rodgers in a tough position.

The stock Rodgers speakers of the day were really poor too, in my opinion. The Rodgers organs that had Walker speakers fitted or retrofitted were MUCH better.