Baldwins, Rodgers, and Allens

[searchinferu]

Can anyone tell me anything about the 500 or 600 series Baldwins? Havent been able to find much on-line, There is a 600Tavailable locally, but I haven't been able to go take a look just yet. I think these date from the late forties or early fifties. Certainly, the T doesn't stand for transistorized. Hopefully, it doesn't stand for terminal either.

Also, can anyone tell me much about a Rodgers 110E? Not sure when they came out, but was hoping the E was for electronic, which hopefully back then was slang for solid state.

Forgive my ignorance, but most of my organs have mechanical pedals and little pieces of brass inside of em, with the exception of my keyboard and my Yamaha FX20. So, my knowledge on voicing, playability, or servicability of these types of instraments is about nil. But, they look neat! Kinda reminds me of a 64 T Bird my ex just had to have, decades ago. When I asked her after I bought it, what it was that pulled her string, she said "I liked all the buttons"! Personnally, I liked the bucket seats, console, and that fire breathing 429 that would all but pull the front wheels off the ground. But, that was her level of automotive knowledge.

So thus, feel free to talk to me like I'm shoppin for a car for the first time. Not really sure I'm buyin' anything, but who knows. Would like to find an older church Allen, but I'm thinkin' caviar on a sardine budget. Or, would that be T Bird on a Facon.....

P.S. What's in your wallet? er, fer sale bin?

[OrgansR4Me]

If memory serves me correctly a 600 Baldwin (the company was strong in the 40's and 50's but was using only 1 or 2 digits in model numers until the 1970's) would be late in their production run and quality was being compromised by a very competitive market at the time. As to your question about Rodgers almost everything in the resale market place is solid state today since the technology became standard during the second half of the 60's. Close to 50 years -- unless you want a historic piece you'll probably not see a tube organ advertised. If you are considering Allen you want to look for something from the 80's or later. Many home size self contained Digitals (reconditioned for the most part) are out there below $2000 and some are free if you find a church changing music styles.

[james]

OrgansR4Me is correct regarding the model numbers of Baldwin Organs. The T stands for a Transposer feature which of coarse lowers or raises a given tone for different keys. You can play a piece as written, but hear it in a different key.

Most Baldwin church organs before these were quality organs and built like a battleship. IMHO if Baldwin had stayed in the church organ business from the beginning of their electronic organs shortly after WWII they would have really done well. Many of their home organs were not as popular as other brands.

[toodles]

To my knowledge, all Rodgers Organs are solid-state, although I think some early amplifiers were tube-type. The 110E is from late 1960's or early 1970's, and the E should stand for external speakers. "I" is for internal speakers.

[searchinferu]

OK folks, welcome onboard this flight of fancy and thanks for all the current info. A transposer? Hmmm, made for a poor student like me! Wonder if it works?
I am in contact with the 600 owner and while the photos show it to be 'a looker', it is currently stored in a garage and has no speakers. Leslies aren't cheap. Is there a more practicle way to get speakers and an amp? This organ is within driving distance and is tempting, although I haven't heard or examined it yet. He does have leslies for it, but I wouldn't know how to judge one and I think he would want more for the leslie than the organ!

The 500 has an internal speaker (perhaps a leslie?), but the photos show poor casework, and an unexplained raised key. It is about to be un-churched, and the happy-clappies say they haven't attemptted to see if it works. Still, I'll spend more on gas to go get it then what they are asking. Worth the drive? Perhaps only a parts organ and then again, perhaps a solution to the 600 without a speaker and main amp? But then I have a big dead organ to deal with if I use it to build the first. Actually, perhaps the 500's speaker could be installed into the 600? Would certainly save space, although I think it would sound better to the player anyway, if the vibes came from further off than your knees.

Both organs seem to have one or more horizontaly mounted levers, perhaps brass. The photos aren't the best. Would these be manual or pedal couplers? Or, perhaps a transporter to go along with the transposer.......Quick Spock! Beam me up!

Anyway, I hope none of my passengers have used the emergency over wing exits yet. As this ship is currently on autopilot, awaiting further instructions. Over. Hello? Hello?

[james]

If memory serves me correctly a Baldwin 632 Church organ is an update of the model 48C I have. Mine is a very nice organ for church music. I liked the Baldwin church organs vs. Allen or Rodgers since I have had little experience with the latter two. The 632 has a larger case, and a few more additions in the stops on both manuals. They both have "blind" pre set pistons which are useful. Also there are several useful couplers, but on mine they are all intra manual.

[OrgansR4Me]

It is rare to hear of a Rodgers organ teamed with a Leslie speaker. Most of the light tremulant needed is provided electronically and some high quality (wide range) speakers that are stationary will do just fine. Wire can be run about 100 feet if space permits to avoid the at the knees situation. As one who prefers self contained I've always gotten the sound back from the room so calculate the positioning of the instrument to keep tone reflecting off the walls. If you've not already gotten the idea that is exactly what a Leslie speaker does only mechanically to enhance the effect.

[Jan Girardot]

Sorry, not a bit "rare to hear of a Rodgers organ teamed with a Leslie speaker." Practically all Rodgers of that era (1969---) had a Leslie output channel and ROC even built some tone cabinets that utilized a "built-in" Leslie unit.

. . . Jan
the OrganGrinder

[rodgers110]

Sorry, not a bit "rare to hear of a Rodgers organ teamed with a Leslie speaker." Practically all Rodgers of that era (1969---) had a Leslie output channel and ROC even built some tone cabinets that utilized a "built-in" Leslie unit.

. . . Jan
the OrganGrinder

My 1975 RODGERS 110-II is set up as follows--MAIN DIAPASON---M13
--MAIN FLUTE--------M13
--MAIN PEDAL-------W6
--MAIN LESLIE------125

--ECHO DIAPASON, with Flute, Swell, and Pedal mixing switches closed--M13
--ECHO LESLIE--125

Works out very nicely

[searchinferu]

I think I may have used the wrong Baldwin Model numbers, as one is now a model 5 and another a 6. However, the one with the onboard speaker I was told was a 600T and does appear to have some device to to the left of the manual that might actually control something like that. The levers, I have discovered are couplers, speaker selectors, and I think the leslie motor control. One I believe has a celesta, which I haven't ever heard. I am going to see this unit tomorrow, so perhaps I'll get the chance. It has a beautiful case, but doesn't come with speakers unless I wanna fork up another six hundred buck, which is not in my budget. Shopping on eBay, it would seem like a leslie will stay out of my range. But, I would still need to find a speaker console with an amp and a way to convert it to the Baldwin 6 pin plug. I would assume two wires provide AC for the amp, two provide power to the leslie(s) and the other two wouild be control for the leslies?
Anyone know what voltage comes out of the Baldwin pre amp? And is my guess on the speaker schematic logical?

[searchinferu]

Baldwin with a bag over it's head

eh! I was gonna try and add a photo of the original Balwin that noone seems to know what it might be. I've added it to this post, but don't see it. Perhaps it will show up anyway!

[searchinferu]

OK, that worked! Funny you cant see the photos when you attach em. At any rate, does this look familiar to anyone? Oh, and I went and saw the 600E today. Really nice case, but was only about 10% functional with almost no volume despite being hooked up to two leslie cabinets. Owner didnt want to sell the speakers, just the organ. It really wouldn't work without them. Smile. The organ pictured was left in a church when the building was sold. The new building owners were told it played just fine, but they have never attempted to play it. Where have I heard this before? This has internal speakers. IF anyone knows what model this is, that would be a start. Wonder if 500 or 600 model parts would be interchangable, as I can pick up the 600 for a song. Still, after I shoot one of em in the head, I still have a bathtub in my front yard! Perhaps I should just dream a diferent dream? Like being a better player?

[jbird604]

That's a 630 in the pics. A pretty decent old Baldwin with a good stoplist and fully AGO pedals, some simple but useful presets. If it's a late version (630T) it will have a transposer (series of small white pushbuttons on one end of the manual assembly.) Lacks the elaborate solid-state keying of the newer 632/635/636/626/645 series, but I've played many of these that sound quite good. Without solid-state keyers, each pitch level has a separate little switch behind each key (sort of like the old Hammond Bs and Cs) and the switches can become dirty or the conductive vinyl can get intermittent, but the ones I service regularly seem to be holding up well.

One nice feature is the "tone expander" circuit. It was quite amazing 40+ years ago. The frequency sources in this model are a set of dividers, so the sound would normally be lock-step sterile with no chorus in the ensemble. However, Baldwin devised the tone expander circuit to send the audio through a set of bandpass filters, put a slow frequency shifting circuit (like an analog delay) on each band. The result is that when enabled in the "chorus" position you hear what sounds like multiple frequency sources (like a larger Allen analog with separate diapason and flute ranks). In the "celeste" position, the frequency shifting is speeded up and it sure sounds like a celeste. (Drawback is that the celeste affects reeds and such that shouldn't be celestes, but it is much better than the dry sound without it.)

These are sometimes free for the taking, so I wouldn't recommend paying much for it. I really doubt you'd benefit by getting two old Baldwins that aren't exactly alike because parts are not all that interchangeable. Baldwin pretty much built each model from scratch at that time. There might be the odd piece of hardware that would interchange, but you'll find it easy to repair the 632 because it uses mostly off-the-shelf standard components. The bent key in the pic can probably be fixed once you raise the manuals and see just what got bent and put it back like it was. You WILL need the service manual to figure out how to get into the manuals though, not as easy as it looks!

Good luck!

[searchinferu]

Well, they didn't return my calls this weekend, so perhaps it has found a home. Or, it is a church office that is only 'personed' a day or two a week. It's a coupe of hours away too. I looked at the 6 that neede way to much and was amazed at how HEAVY it was. Would be a bear to get in or out of my pickup, and I've moved a few. So, I would probably rent a truck. Rent plus gas, I'd probably have a hundred in it time I got home even if was free.

I've finally started taking lessons and am having a lot of fun with it. My FX20 is super, but I'm not going to learn much about registrations and such with it. But, I do love the idea that I can just pick up a trumpet or whatever and add it to the ansamble (even if I cant spell it). So, I am looking for something to get me headin' in that direction. Unfortunately, I went on disability six months ago, so I don't have too many nickles to rub together. I put a craigslist add in looking for someone interesting in re-homing an older church organ. So, something will show up.