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  • Allen 301RTC

    I see an Allen 301RTC listed for sale. Can someone tell me what the RTC means? Also, I see on this forum different versions of the 301 like B & C. Can someone tell me what the differences are? Where is this version listed on the organ - the model # on the nameplate? What is this organ worth? The asking price is $2,500. Thanks all !!!

  • #2
    Usually the 1st character after the base model (in this case, the "r" after the 301) is the console style. Style B is a church. stop tab model, where the end panels are cut at an angle. Style D is similar, but usually deeper, and the end panels are cut square, to allow for drawknob stop jambs, though this style is often used on larger stop-tab models. Style F is an oversized, very large version of D with panelled ends.

    T is the scaled down version of the D introduced with the MADC models (2100, 3100, etc.) in the early to mid 1980's. M is a later version of the same with the lid sitting on top of the end panels instead of recessed into the end panels. It is also a little taller.

    Most of Allen's standard drawknob consoles now use the M style or a variation of it.

    I'm not sure what the model number of the contemporary style console is, but it came into being with the first digital models. It is probably what the "R" stands for.

    As to the TC, I'm only guessing here, but the 301 had a rank of analog celeste oscillators (Allen hadn't figured out digital celeste voices yet), so it could be "Transistorized Celeste", or it could be something completely different.

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    • #3
      I did a web search on "Allen 301RTC organ" and did not find any hits, but there were some for 225RTC and 124RTC instruments. From the pictures, it would appear that the console style had a single row of stop tablets, a lighted clear music rack (probably foldable), and (maybe) a fallboard that slides back over the top of the organ when in use. The pictures are not clear enough (or enough of them) to be sure about the fallboard.

      As another stated, the MOS1 and MOS2 instruments used the same format of Tone Cards.

      David

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      • #4
        RTC= remote tone cabinet

        The System 300 models only used them anyway (no self-contained model 300 series organs) so I think it might be a S.*2*01RTC or some variant.
        The price sounds WAY too high for a MOS-1 organ. One sees MOS-1 organs for considerably under $1K...
        R, Bill Miller, Phila PA

        Comment


        • #5
          Console designations, computer boards, etc;

          Originally posted by billymack View Post
          I see an Allen 301RTC listed for sale. Can someone tell me what the RTC means? Also, I see on this forum different versions of the 301 like B & C. Can someone tell me what the differences are? Where is this version listed on the organ - the model # on the nameplate? What is this organ worth? The asking price is $2,500. Thanks all !!!
          As a former Allen representative, the "R" on the 301 usually meant "roll top console." The "contemporary", or "C" series console originally came equipped with a folding console top. Later in production, it was changed to a roll top console with a "fixed" solid wood music desk. A lighted music desk was an option for this model organ. The "TC" stood for "transistorized celeste." The 300 series organs were single computer organs and utilized a 49-note set of transistorized oscillators to generate the celeste voices on the organ - one voice on the Swell and one voice on the Great. This set of oscillators were tuned about two cents sharp, which gave a nice, rich celeste sound when drawn against the unison string stop. The celeste rank could be tuned as "wide" as was desired by either the organist or technician giving a rich "broad" celeste sound, or conversely a "narrow" thin sounding celeste. The multi computer organs (600 series and up) utilized multi- computers for their tone generation, with one computer dedicated to producing the celeste ranks via tuning the entire computer "sharp" in relation to the other computer(s) in the organ. The 601-602-603 and 632 utilized two computers, while the 903 had three computers, the 1203 had four (or more) computers, and the 1503 had five (or more) computers. The 1503 series was dropped after the introduction of the MOS-II series organs and replaced with the Custom series organs incorporating the new SDDS technology.

          The "S" series console was a small, compact console with 61-note manuals, and the Allen infamous "modified AGO" pedalboard, better known as the "princess pedals." This console design harkened back to the days of the S-12/15 organs, the "S" standing for "small" console. This model was later re-designated as the "T-12/15" series in 1959, the "T" standing for "transistorized", which designated the oscillators as being transistorized, or solid state.

          All horseshoe console designs were designated with the prefix "TH" standing for "theater" console, or designating the traditional horseshoe console design. All theater horseshoe consoles had this designation.

          This is a brief overview of the console codes and computer boards.

          Also, $2500 for a MOS I instrument is a little high - around $700-$1000 (depending upon condition) would be closer to reality.
          Blessings Always,

          Edward Stephen Cumming :-B
          e.s.cumming@gmail.com

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          • #6
            Thanks for the replies. I see different versions when I do a search. Can you tell me what the different versions added ( B, C...) and I assume the 301 is the base version?

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            • #7
              Thanks for the info about RTC... I sure was wrong!
              Didn't Allen make some S1800's (6 computers)? Somewhere I have a recording of a former teacher playing one. IIRC, the 5th computer added 16' Swell couplers around the organ (and a pedal stop or two taken from it), and the 6th added 4' Swell couplers (ditto).
              R, Bill


              Originally posted by txpipes61 View Post
              As a former Allen representative, the "R" on the 301 usually meant "roll top console." The "contemporary", or "C" series console originally came equipped with a folding console top. Later in production, it was changed to a roll top console with a "fixed" solid wood music desk. A lighted music desk was an option for this model organ. The "TC" stood for "transistorized celeste." The 300 series organs were single computer organs and utilized a 49-note set of transistorized oscillators to generate the celeste voices on the organ - one voice on the Swell and one voice on the Great. This set of oscillators were tuned about two cents sharp, which gave a nice, rich celeste sound when drawn against the unison string stop. The celeste rank could be tuned as "wide" as was desired by either the organist or technician giving a rich "broad" celeste sound, or conversely a "narrow" thin sounding celeste. The multi computer organs (600 series and up) utilized multi- computers for their tone generation, with one computer dedicated to producing the celeste ranks via tuning the entire computer "sharp" in relation to the other computer(s) in the organ. The 601-602-603 and 632 utilized two computers, while the 903 had three computers, the 1203 had four (or more) computers, and the 1503 had five (or more) computers. The 1503 series was dropped after the introduction of the MOS-II series organs and replaced with the Custom series organs incorporating the new SDDS technology.

              The "S" series console was a small, compact console with 61-note manuals, and the Allen infamous "modified AGO" pedalboard, better known as the "princess pedals." This console design harkened back to the days of the S-12/15 organs, the "S" standing for "small" console. This model was later re-designated as the "T-12/15" series in 1959, the "T" standing for "transistorized", which designated the oscillators as being transistorized, or solid state.

              All horseshoe console designs were designated with the prefix "TH" standing for "theater" console, or designating the traditional horseshoe console design. All theater horseshoe consoles had this designation.

              This is a brief overview of the console codes and computer boards.

              Also, $2500 for a MOS I instrument is a little high - around $700-$1000 (depending upon condition) would be closer to reality.

              Comment


              • #8
                Based on txpipes61 comments, and my understanding, B and C would be the console styles. Organ Stop has an ADC-4000B console for sale, and you can see what the B console looks like here: http://www.organstop.com/wordpress-2...-ADC-4000B.jpg

                This forum posting has a good image of the Contemporary C console: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...-allen-301-124

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by toodles View Post
                  Based on txpipes61 comments, and my understanding, B and C would be the console styles. Organ Stop has an ADC-4000B console for sale, and you can see what the B console looks like here: http://www.organstop.com/wordpress-2...-ADC-4000B.jpg

                  This forum posting has a good image of the Contemporary C console: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...-allen-301-124
                  Toodles, thanks for the help. Attached are links to a guy demonstrating a "301-B". I didn't know what the "B" implied
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs9H2kT9jcM
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8yd23cOORo
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et5hV2x5XHE
                  .
                  In my original post I stated that I see for sale a 301RTC. I have attached a picture of it. Are these two organs similar?
                  Attached Files

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                  • #10
                    Same base model; different console styles; the one in your ad should have a celeste stop on each manual--I don't know if that was included in the base model or not.

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                    • #11
                      All 300 series MOS1 models have the analog celeste as standard equipment. The 300 series was Allen's fully decked-out single computer model with capture action (sequential type in early product, DM in later), external speakers, 32' pedal stop, card reader, toe studs, crescendo pedal, and celeste, all standard.

                      The letters and numbers following a model designation apparently had different meanings in different situations. The "-3" following any model number would indicate the "second church" set of voices, which were a slight variation on the original MOS spec and a different way of channelling them, putting 8' and 4' members of most choruses into opposite channels. (As opposed to the original MOS scheme that put flutes and pedals in one channel, everything else in another.)

                      "DK" often means "drawknob" console, of course. B, C, D, and T are different console styles (and there are other console styles today with even more letters that I don't know about).

                      It's possible that some rather significant options, such as "frequency separation" (FS), might have been recognized on the model plate, but I can't tell you that for sure. I have seen "RTC" on a model plate before, but honestly never knew what it was for. I don't think I ever saw a MOS1 system 300 in anything other than a rolltop console but the early ones perhaps had the folding lids and later ones were rolltop. But all 300 series organs have remote tone cabinets, so I don't see any reason why that would be designated in the model plate.

                      I defer to the gentleman above who was an Allen rep. My time as an Allen salesman was during the ADC era only, so my knowledge of MOS comes from my years as a serviceman, and I sometimes have to learn by observation only!
                      Last edited by jbird604; 04-01-2014, 06:16 PM. Reason: rtc
                      John
                      ----------
                      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                        All 300 series MOS1 models have the analog celeste as standard equipment. The 300 series was Allen's fully decked-out single computer model with capture action (sequential type in early product, DM in later), external speakers, 32' pedal stop, card reader, toe studs, crescendo pedal, and celeste, all standard.

                        The letters and numbers following a model designation apparently had different meanings in different situations. The "-3" following any model number would indicate the "second church" set of voices, which were a slight variation on the original MOS spec and a different way of channelling them, putting 8' and 4' members of most choruses into opposite channels. (As opposed to the original MOS scheme that put flutes and pedals in one channel, everything else in another.)

                        "DK" often means "drawknob" console, of course. B, C, D, and T are different console styles (and there are other console styles today with even more letters that I don't know about).

                        It's possible that some rather significant options, such as "frequency separation" (FS), might have been recognized on the model plate, but I can't tell you that for sure. I have seen "RTC" on a model plate before, but honestly never knew what it was for. I don't think I ever saw a MOS1 system 300 in anything other than a rolltop console but the early ones perhaps had the folding lids and later ones were rolltop. But all 300 series organs have remote tone cabinets, so I don't see any reason why that would be designated in the model plate.

                        I defer to the gentleman above who was an Allen rep. My time as an Allen salesman was during the ADC era only, so my knowledge of MOS comes from my years as a serviceman, and I sometimes have to learn by observation only!
                        This is probably why I'm so confused !;-)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Could be as simple as "ROLLL TOP CONSOLE"?? The contemporary style console with fallboard seems to have been standard in the MOS era.

                          As far as I know, MOS models off a base model only vary in stoplist if the "-3" type of suffix is called out. Here's a model I know: 603D-DK is a model 603, in the D style console, with drawknobs.

                          In all, I think you're concerning yourself far too much with the suffix of the model. If you're interested in buying the organ, check it out and it will have what it has. It's not like we can order one of these old models anymore!

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                          • #14
                            OK, billymack, I'm ready to make a pronouncement. After seeing the other posts, and looking at the photo you provided, I'm ready to say that the "RTC" does indeed mean "roll top console" or perhaps "roll top contemporary" (since the photo you posted is of a contemporary console with the roll top -- as opposed to the older contemporary console with the fallboard cover).

                            Read my post above about the particular features of the 301 model. As I said, it's a fully decked-out single-computer MOS1 organ, so it has a lot of nice sounds and makes a great starter organ. Obviously, an organ nearly 40 years old doesn't have the same sound you'd get with a newer one, as digital sound was still pretty primitive back then. They sound nice in a big reverberant church, but close up in a home they sound a little raw. Many owners have installed reverb units on them to take the edge off and make them sound more pleasant and interesting. Organs of this age are often available for very little money though and as others have said, the price you quoted is probably too high. Unless, that is, you are getting a lot of extras such as delivery and setup, voicing, perhaps a warranty. Then it might be worth closer to that.

                            As to your original question about 301B or 301C ... A 301 is a 301 regardless of the letters following it. The B or C would simply designate the style of the console. "B" consoles are the deluxe broad-armed consoles similar to what the old TC-4 organs were built in, rather bulky looking but very classical and impressive. The "C" version of the 301 would be in the "contemporary" console, a modern-ish looking console with a top section set off from the lower section by a black band. 1970-ish modern, in other words, and a style that Allen phased out in the early 80's. Not ugly, but not as classy as the "B" case.

                            (Just to add a little info and NOT cause any more confusion -- Allen has another console that is technically called the "C" console, but it is a huge console reserved nowadays for enormous custom instruments. Back in the ADC era, the largest three-manual drawknob models were built in this C console. It is huge and heavy, so big that the back comes off in four sections. But a 301-C would NOT be in that console!)

                            Good luck. I hope you find a nice instrument.
                            John
                            ----------
                            *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by toodles View Post
                              As to the TC, I'm only guessing here, but the 301 had a rank of analog celeste oscillators (Allen hadn't figured out digital celeste voices yet), so it could be "Transistorized Celeste", or it could be something completely different.
                              The problem with electronic celestes is that the mistuned stops have to run through a separate audio channel. If you sum tuned and mistuned stops electronically (i.e., before the amps) you lose the celeste effect and get a sort of vibrato instead (which, incidentally, must be how celestes sound to people who are stone deaf in one ear!) I always figured Allen found it a lot cheaper and easier to go with 98 conventional oscillators for the celestes than to add a third digital-to-analog converter and, probably, an enlarged computer to handle the third output channel. (I suspect the original computer could handle mistuned stops, since the mutations were tuned to true pitch, not tempered pitch.) I don't know how the 300 series was priced, but I do recall that the MSRP for a 1973 201C (which lacked the celestes, card reader, crescendo pedal and 32' stops) was $7,200, which was a nice chunck of change in those days.

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