Allen R300 Voicing Advice Needed

[fingerstoes316]

Greetings All,

I am having the Allen Tech come out to voice an R300 that is installed in a church I have played at several times and which is in
great need of corrective voicing. Right now it sounds dull and lifeless. It sounds as if it were voiced for little old ladies and not for a vibrant church
which sings lustfully which this one is. I'm not sure what voice samples are loaded into the organ now, but at this point I will be having the tech change out the swell reeds, the great diapason, and perhaps the 32 foot in the pedal and the mixtures also need work. The organ needs to be brighter and more vibrant and hopefully that is what will happen as a result of this. I have a excellent ear for what sounds good but I'm just not very familiar with voicing procedures and what samples might be available for those stops I mentioned.

Any information or advice would be beneficial.

[jbird604]

A word of advice: It's not uncommon in my experience for the tweeters in the Heritage series speakers that Allen used in these organs to become disconnected inside the tone cabinet. When this happens, all the stops coming from that channel will be very dull and lifeless. If you have some stops that are terribly lifeless, have the tech swap speakers around by moving the speaker wires in the back of the console to be sure that you don't have a bad tweeter on one channel.

Also, be aware that the 300 is a rather sparse three-manual organ with only 32 actual independent stops spread out into only four audio channels (unless it has the optional fifth channel, which is actually just a crossover-derived bass from one of the other channels). There is a good bit of borrowing going on, though it is done judiciously and you may not really be aware of it until it's pointed out. So it's not going to sound huge, though it can be quite a good organ if carefully voiced.

Be sure to check speaker orientation as it can make a very big difference. I have seen some of these installed with speakers turned around backwards by the installing dealer in a mis-guided attempt to make the sound more diffuse. IMHO, speakers should NEVER be turned around to face the back wall of the chamber, but tipping them back so that the sound bounces off the ceiling is often a good idea and may well improve the sound.

The tech will probably show up with a laptop computer and will have a CD (or the files may be on his hard drive) with numerous alternate samples that can be used for some of the existing stops. The system is fairly flexible, but will not allow you, for example, to use a Gemshorn in place of a diapason. Many of the stops will have four or five alternate sets, so you should be able to find some that you like.

When I used to play on an Allen R-281 (same small-cage technology as the R-300), I changed out the somewhat lifeless diapason tone in the great for an alternate sound, possibly the "Prinzipal 8" which was in fact the tone of the 8' principal in the old MOS organs. But it was just richer and sweeter than the plain vanilla diapson and I was very happy with the results. I think I changed out another stop or two, but not a lot of them.

It is quite time-consuming to replace a sample, so you can't just switch them around at will until you like what you get. Fortunately, the CD has an auditioning feature that lets you hear a snippet of a given sample before you go to the trouble of installing it into the memory of your organ. The audition function does nothing more than play a little tune that lasts maybe 10 seconds using each available voice, but it does give you a good idea of what you'll be getting.

That being said, I'm guessing that you'll benefit a lot more from the multitude of tonal adjustments that can be made with the DOVE software than from actual sample swapping. Each stop can be altered quite a bit with the tone controls, and individual notes and/or entire ranges of the scale can be boosted or cut to drastically change the character of a stop. So you might want to major on doing that rather than using large chunks of time to swap samples.

It is possible, using only the console controller display, to change the overall level of each stop. The procedure is obscure and arcane, but your tech might be willing to show you how to do that in case you need to adjust something after you try it out with a congregation in the room.

Just keep in mind that you are working with only four channels, that the amplifiers are not really all that powerful, the speakers are a little bit more directional than older types were, and you must not try to get more out of the organ than it can do. Not that it isn't a really nice organ, but it is not as big as its stoplist makes it appear to be, so don't set it up with some voices so loud that the amps will go into clipping when you draw a big tutti.

[Moller Artiste]

I'm adding to what John wrote. I sold Allen Organs during MDS and early Renaissance models. I had an R300 as a demo unit in my church. The building had high ceilings and great acoustics. The speakers were in an open rear balcony that was not used. In a good setting, the organ sounds great. The swell reeds are French and were a bit too much in your face, however they did contribute to the brightness of the organ. I agree with John, that changing samples may not produce what you want. The DOVE software, if used correctly, can probably help resolve the issues you are experiencing. Learning how to adjust ranks from the console controller is a great idea. Depending on the situation, you have the flexibility of making adjustments that can easily be reversed later without requiring DOVE. Please let us know what the tech is able to do. Where is the organ located?

[fingerstoes316]

Thank you kindly for the advice. I have only a couple of follow up questions. First, when you audition the samples, does it play them through the organ speakers or only the pc speakers? Also, will the tech save the voicing after we are done so if something happens to the organ, we can reload that voicing later on? My goal is to get more of a German or Aeolian Skinner type of Principal sound from the entire organ if possible. I know i can't make it sound like 80 ranks, but I do want what is there to be sound as good as it can. I think there are only two or three stops that are borrowed in other places of the organ, but maybe I am wrong. I do know they are marked where that is done but hopefully it doesn't impact too much what I can do. I did try to use the console controller once, but the adjustments I made had absolutely no effect on the sound. Is it possible that this feature is locked by a switch hidden in the back of the organ?

Thank you again for the information.

- - - Updated - - -

If the swell reeds that came loaded in this organ from the factory are french then you'd never no it. They are dull and opaque, not at all fiery like french reeds should be. The whole organ is that way. It makes me so sad because I know Allen organs can sound wonderful if voiced correctly. I believe and hope that this is all that is required in this situation.

- - - Updated - - -

The organ is located in a Seventh Day Adventist Church in the North Orlando area.

[Moller Artiste]

There is a lockout switch in the back of the console. If the console is difficult to move, open the top panel and then close the roll top. Look down into the back of the console on the bass side, at the inside of the left panel. There is a toggle switch to flip. It activates or deactivates the appearance of the console controller voicing controls. There should be a voicing chart with the organ. Ranks are indicated by numbers/frames. If you make adjustments, be sure to write down what you changed in case you're not satisfied. The tech can save a file for each "version" of the organ you want, however, DOVE software is required to "toggle" between various voicing schemes. Even though it's not extremely difficult to make changes, I recommend finding what you want and leaving it that way. If you make many changes, especially with the console controller, it can become confusing. One last comment, the tech can pull console controller values and save them as a file. If you make independent changes via the console controller and there is a system failure, your changes are not permanently saved. Keep a paper trail, or have the tech save the file after ALL changes are made. I always left a dated digital copy of the latest voicing inside the console. If the tech has a computer failure, your specific files could be lost.

[jbird604]

I wouldn't want you to think I don't care for that organ or that I'm putting it down. I'm a huge fan of Allen organs, play one at church and have one at home. But this model (like others of the series) has some quirks that are a bit disappointing to me and bolster my notion that Allen really peaked out with the MDS models and began doing some unfortunate comprising with the Renaissance series.

When I played at a church with an R-281 I was generally very pleased with it and was never disappointed in the overall sound. The 281 we had (which was a gift, the church could not have afforded it if they'd had to buy it) was a rather unique Ren-II model with two complete Ren-II cages outputting eight audio channels and capable of 64 ranks. Allen had used the system very conservatively to design a nice little two-manual organ with a floating ancillary and with a number of alternate voices on some of the knobs. I was very proud to be playing it.

As to the borrowing on the R-300, it is not all indicated. There are (I think) 40 speaking stops on this model. But the Ren-II cage has room for only 32 stops, and there is no way to extend that, so obviously some of the stops are borrowed or unified.

For example, on the swell the 2-2/3, 2', and 1-3/5 flute stops are all derived from the same rank. I always thought it odd that Allen would do this, since one of the great features of the digital organ from the start was the independence of stops and the "proper" tuning of all mutations. Since these two mutations are drawn from a unison rank, they are obviously not tuned to the true harmonics of the 8' stop. Once I became aware of this, I noticed it all the time and found it annoying.

Several other stops are unified, particularly the various 16' and 8' stops in the pedals, and some others that you will notice when you peruse the voicing chart. These are not problematic at all as far as tuning goes, but it was noticeable to me when I would have preferred to have some difference in weight between the 16' and 8' members of a chorus.

Enjoy the voicing process and let us know how it turns out!

[fingerstoes316]

Will Do! One last question for all. The tech is charging $900.00 flat for the day to voice and change out stops and will be working from 9:00 AM to 2:30 PM with no lunch break. Is this a fair price or is it a little on the high side? At first he wanted to charge a fee for each stop sample he changed out, but after calling the Allen dealer he works with I got them talk to him and have him back off of that. Now it will be just a flat fee for everything. I was hoping we would go till at least 4 PM but I didn't get that worked out beforehand and I didn't feel like arguing with him again so hopefully we'll be able to get it all done by that time.

[don60]

That fee sounds a little high. Where are you located?

[circa1949]

John, and Moeller Artiste, thanks for your informative posts.
Does the Renaissance/Quantum audition feature preview the stop on the laptop, or on the organ itself? Seems hearing them on crummy laptop speakers would be of very limited utility.

[arie v]

Hi,

I don't know that I have ever come across an Allen R-300. I have the R-320 a number of times, and found in it some compromises. Sounds like the R-300 is even more so. For some reason organists/church committees are enamoured with getting small 3 manual rather than a comprehensive 2 manual, which is usually the better musical instrument.

Was not only Allen that did this kind of thing. A lot of companies put out a small 3 manual, that was compromised in terms of tone generation, tonal issues audio channels, etc. All this was done to lower the price to the customer.

One thing you might want to change before starting the voicing, is make sure the battery (for memory back-up) is replaced.
Even before you do this, you may also want to write the voicing data to a computer, so at least you will not have to replace it anytime soon.

AV

[Moller Artiste]

My Renaissance experience was from the product introduction. The laptop was used to audition a stop. There was no audio provision between the laptop and the console. Since you have very few hours for voicing and an expensive fee, perhaps it would be better to have the tech voice the organ before changing out ranks. Changing ranks takes time and could compromise the tech's visit by not using the time to do actual voicing.

[jbird604]

I agree with Moller above. Changing out a single rank will take a sizable chunk of the tech's time. As I said way up there, I did in fact change at least the 8' diapason on the great, and I think I changed out a flute somewhere for one with more chiff. But that was just my preference, and I had all the time in the world to do it. Fortunately, the major voicing work can be done first and the organ will retain that data even if you swap the sample later.

Truth is, the default samples are all nice and you can make a lot of meaningful changes via DOVE. Once your tech gets the voices in proper balance and brings out the frequency ranges needed to overcome the dullness you hear, you may be quite happy. I remember going out to voice a small Renaissance a few years ago and doing little more than adjust stop levels in the console controller. The organist, who has great ears and a history of playing pipes only, was delighted and I never even used DOVE at all.

Since you seem to be saying the organ is just way too dull all over the place, I'm inclined to think the speaker placement may be poor. Do check that first because it could make a huge difference right away. And don't forget to check the tweeters. I have seen them come loose on two organs and it totally ruined the tone of the channel affected.

As to the $900, fees vary so much from place to place that it's hard to judge. Personally, I almost never go out on a job by myself since I got my business partner/associate tech seven years ago. So the daily intake has to support both of us, and your tech may also have a partner who has to be paid, even if he doesn't bring him along that day. Also, the travel and mileage portion of the fee is a necessary part of it, since he's spending his entire work day with you, so if he's traveling some distance part of the fee goes for that.

Here in my territory I often have to travel 100 to 150 miles just to get where we're going for the day, and of course we have to come back the same distance. And we have meals to pay for on the road. To be honest, when both of us go off somewhere and spend the entire day on one job, I need to charge even more than that to make it a profitable day. I think the figure is probably about right for a competent tech giving you over 5 hours of his day.

RE: the audition process on the samples: the sound is heard from the computer's audio system, not the organ's. So in order to hear it adequately you'll need good headphones or a good way to patch the sound into the organ's audio system. Renaissance organs have audio inputs that are used for the MIDI expander, so the tech could use that as an input. Of course he's probably already thought about that and has a plan. Take headphones just in case.

I hope it goes well. Please report!

[fingerstoes316]

Greetings Again,

Did the voicing today and actually did end up switching out several samples. The Great default Principal was the first to go and was replaced by sample "570 NASPNS 1973" which I think stands for Naval Air Station Pensacola. It has just bit more chiff and harmonics and sounds whole lot better. Also replaced the Great Mixture with the sample from the same organ which also sounds much better than the default. There was indeed more borrowing than I or the tech realized at first, but we were able to work around it. Also replaced the default Hauotbis which was the CC sample for a straight Oboe which was a bit more round around the edges.
Overall, the whole organ sounds much more clean and bright, but no matter what I did I just couldn't get the swell reeds to blend in with the whole ensemble in a cohesive way that I was satisfied with. It's OK, but I just couldn't the reeds blend in like I wished for. Perhaps a limitation of the system or something.
I also recommend to the church that they order and install a separate amp and subwoofer in order to bring out the bass in the pedals which it needs very badly. The organ only came with HC 12's which is not enough for proper pedal bass definition.

[circa1949]

Thanks for the update, and the screenshot of Dove which several posters here are familiar with but I've never seen before. Dove uses a serial cable right? No wonder it takes so long to update samples! Of course considering it was developed in the mid 1990s, that makes sense as USB was in its infancy then. Maybe the latest Quantums can use something else?

[jbird604]

Thanks for the report. Happy to know that you had some success. I agree that you could use more speakers if all you have is a set of four HC type. If I were your local dealer or tech, I'd probably want to pursue a somewhat more creative way to speaker a small organ like that. Starting with a crossover and a sub would be a good plan. I might also want to replace the HC boxes with something more suited to the Renaissance technology. I know Allen used their aging HC speakers with Renaissance for a while, but eventually went with some new designs that have horn-loaded tweeters for more brilliance and crispness.

One HR-200 and one HR-100 on each channel along with a subwoofer on the bass branch of the channel with the 32' stop would be revelatory compared to the old HC's. Of course we're talking about a good chunk of change, possibly a few thousand dollars.

The organ stop samples on the DOVE disk, far as I know, come from several organs including the Pensacola Naval Air Station, a few CC organs in France, some European and English organs not thoroughly identified, and another American organ or two. I know I have a list somewhere but can't put my hands on it at the moment. Maybe I'll find it later and post more detail, or one of the other Allen guys here may have it at hand.