Life expectancy of a digital church organ

[Guest]

My church has a 15 year old Makin organ which has had1 broken note and 2 broken stops, otherwise fine. My school has a 5ish year old Makin which is slightly bigger, but that is constantly breaking and having notes going wrong everywhere. What is the average life expectancy of an electronic church organ, and why could the younger one be having so many more problems than the older one?</P>

[Guest]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

I don't know about digital, but I've got an analogue Allen TC-1 which is probably almost 40 years old. It spent most of its life in a church until it was replaced by a newer model. A local organbuilder used it as a hire organ for a while, and I bought it from them. I've moved house with it twice in the last 6 years, and, in our last house it lived in the garage which became a musicroom/workshop! It's now indoors in my study. Touch wood, it all works except for the rotating sound motor in the speaker cabinet which has bees dead since it was in the church. I use it most days for practice. OK, so the sound's not wonderful, but it beats driving a round trip of 25 to practice in a cold church!

Nigel

[IndianaBill]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ



I have an Allen 301 that was fabricated in 1977. It was in a Baptist Church in Central Illinois until it was traded in to the local Allen dealer. I bought it from them last year. I works nearly flawlessly. I did have to have some minor things repaired, but for the most part, it plays very well.</P>


I think it depends mostly on how the organ is cared for over how old it is.</P>

[dhm]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

[quote user="diaphone32"]


My church has a 15 year old Makin organ...
My school has a 5ish year old Makin...
...why could the younger one be having so many more problems than the older one?</P>


[/quote]</P>


To answer the last question first: perhaps because the older one would have been custom-built by Makins at their works in Lancashire (either Rochdale or Oldham - I'm not sure when they moved). I think they either built their own consoles or bought them in from Kimber-Allen. The newer model would have been mass-produced by Johannus in Holland, who bought Makins afterJohn Pilling died. I don't have any axe to grind against Johannus per se, but there is a lot to be said for small-scale quality custom-building as against mass-production.

A good person to contact if you need assistance or advice regarding repair or rebuilding would be Hugh Banton - used to work for Makins, now does excellent custom-builds of his own. See www.organworkshop.co.uk. </P>

[soundboarddude]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ



I would say that the company that built it, the model, the amount of money that was spent on it, how well it's cared for - all of those are factors!</P>


I know of a Ahlborn organ that's younger than my Baldwin and has problems off the wazoo. However, if you ask me, the Baldwin was built more solidly and was probably more expensive, but the Baldwin hasn't been in the greatest care.</P>


I know of a Rodgers organ that's older than both the Baldwin and the Ahlborn, but it's in better shape.</P>


None of the factors are really "bigger" than the others, but they all important.</P>


I think the same concept applies to pipe organs. Some of the organs that were around in Bach's day are still played, but there are a lot of pipe organs built in the 20th century that don't work any more.</P>


How long should digital church organs last? Who knows? Digital technology is really so new I think it's too soon to be able to say how long they'll last. Sure we can predict and guess, but it's just too soon to really know for sure.</P>

[radagast]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

[quote user="soundboarddude"]


I would say that the company that built it, [/quote]</P>


</P>


Many people like to bleat and holler about how their favorite organ is cheaper than another brand. Well, maybe you can get good quality for a cheap price and maybe not. You do get what you pay for.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ



I had a Baldwin Model 10 which i received for nothing, given to me by Allen organ upon installation of a new Allen. It was an anolog organ and kind of up in years.I really do'nt know when it was built, Maybe '60s or 70's. Maybe 40 years old? when i got it. I had it somewhere around three years AND COPPUT! FINEA! I owned two Baldwin model 4cl. One purchased new, the other was used.The new one lasted about maybe 20 some years or so, i do'nt really know.The used one lasted for some time, then it needed some light work, and i decided to go a used digital. So! i am figuring that the way EVERYTHING is BUILT today maybe a digital will go 25 years or so, Never as long as a pipe organ though.</P>


Diapason</P>

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

My own realistic life expectancy of a new modern digital organ today would be 20 years or so before encountering any serious problems.

I have a 1970's Allen 123C Digital, it works just fine except I believe the internal built in speakers are getting ready to disintegrate. ...and thats just the nature of speakers I would think.

I have a 1971 Rodgers 550 3 manual...it has some issues but doens't affect playing very much, the lowest F sharp on a FEW stops doesn't work, but its not a big deal...there is a crackling/thunder sound on occasion but its rare and doesn't seem to be getting worse, the reverb must be on for a few of the soft stops to work on the choir, and one pedal sticks on occasion.... so you can see it has 3 or 4 small problems, but they don't limit the organ in my opinion, works just fine, and sounds incredibly beautiful coming up on 40 years of age... I hope the same can be said of me! :)

I have a 1947 Hammond CV church console organ that I fully expect to be working several hundred years from now (provided its oiled)...Hammonds take some work, in terms of an occasional tube, and a yearly oiling, but as noted I fully expect there to be operable Hammonds for ages to come...they truely are a marvel.

But the 71 Rodgers and 47 Hammond are not digital of course...
... I do have a 1996 Rodgers 530 digital..... It works just perfect... but the build quality of the case is very poor (compressed wood grain wallpapered case)... I imagine it will fall apart well before the computers on it give out.

which leads me to my point: For those who are purchasing electronic organs.... my advice: Never ever get a organ that is made of particle board. Get a organ that is 100% solid wood, ONLY, EVER. You can say what you want about the Hammond sound, but they are built to last the ages.

On today's digitals, the electronic innards should last for a long time, I think more of a issue over time will be these cheap particle board organ cases disintegrating over time as they surely will in certain environments.

[arie v]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

Hi NYCFarmboy,

As an organ service person, I see all kinds of organs. I stick to full size (AGO console) organs, as I have little to no track record with popular spinets from the 60s and 70s, and also have no schematics, parts, etc. Also in a number of cases the company is out of business, and the residual value of these organs is so low, that it is not worth in many cases to get them fixed.

As to the longevity of electronic organs, you are probably correct that realistically one can expect about 20 to 25 years out of an instrument. That is not to say, that they can't go much longer or that in cases some may not go even cloase to 20 years.

While it is true that in many cases the older instruments were better built, had more traditional materials in them, their longevity depended on getting them serviced. At one time service technicians were around, and in some areas there were quite a few around, and quite a few were very good. The problem now is that there are very few service people around any more. As a result, instruments are being thrown out, and replaced.

With the newer digital organs, in most cases the electronics are pretty stable, and with production techniques, there are not many failures when instruments come out of the box. The problem with most digital organs show up after the warranty is expired. Typical problems that I see are contact problems, blown lightbulbs, dead batteries, blown fuses. In other words problems that aren't difficult to sort out, and these problems usually start after the organ has been on the go for more than 10 years.
However once they are over 10 years out, you start seeing differences in build quality.

The newer organs, while generally reliable, are more beholden to the manufacturer than they used to be. Why? The electronics in the new ones, are made in such a way, the average service tech. cannot fix them. They have to be swapped. That means a tech. who can sort that out, and be able to go to the manufacturer/distributor for a new board. Most companies that build digital organs are pretty good at supplying boards, but do it only until supply runs out. All it takes is one board to give up the ghost, and a replacement cannot be procurred, and you have a deadbeat organ. Another aspect of digital organs is that there is software running them. If the software goes bad, the company that built it needs to be around, to supply that software. In today's fast paced world, people do not so much think about a product lasting 40 or 50 years anymore. More like 5 to 10 years for most things.

As to consoles - I think if you look hard, you will find a precious few that are made of solid wood. Most are not. You will find a combination of solids, particle board, medium density fibre board or lumber core. The only time that other than solid wood really presents a problem is if you get it wet. But I have yet to see an electronic console, that was not abused, fall apart, because of particle board craking, etc.

You may not like the console of your Rodgers 530. I don't blame you, but you have to remember, you didn't pay much for it (or at least you shouldn't have). These organs were among the lowest priced in the market place. But it is not likely to just fall apart on you. The mack-tack finish may peel off, but that is just cosmetic. The Rodgers 550, is totally different, in that it would have excellent build quality, good quality materials, etc. and was meant to last a good long time. And it would have been one expensive organ in it's day.

The Hammond is also well built. But it must be getting to the point where you have contact problems, tubes that need replacing, capacitors that need replacing, scanner that is ready to go, etc. And certain of these Hammond parts are not availble new anymore. Nothing lasts forever, but hey it's almost 60 years old. Pretty good for an electro-mechanical organ.

All in all, with today's approach to building digital organs, in terms of build quality, materials, technology, repairability and today's consumer attitudes 20 to 25 years seems reasonable to me.

Arie V.

[MarkS]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

At a forum of organ builders/manufacturers held years ago someone posed
this question. One pipe organ builder exclaimed, "Forever and
ever. Alleluia!" At that time the only digital organ was
Allen and the individual representing Allen (from Macungie) stated that
the silicon in the chips was expected to last one hundred years.
The earliest Allens are now thirty-five years old.



A recent annual report from Allen Organ mentioned a problem they had
experienced necessitating redesign of circuit boards.
Computer hardware isn't designed to last nearly as long as organs.



I practice on a 1957 Allen, but that it is completely different technology.

[Guest]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ



<FONT face=Verdana>Let's look at this issue from a different perspective: I'm living inEurope and there are many, many "post-war" organs around (besides the many real historical instruments from the 17th thru 19th century). Most of these organs built in the 50th and 60th are experiencing serious technical problems and need substantial repairs or overhauling. The typical cost for such overhauling works are much higher than the purchase price for a brand new high-quality digital organ.</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana>High-quality electronic or digital organs are not cheap - but they last for a long time, much longer than the 20 years or so which have been mentioned in this thread.</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana>There is a saying "I can't afford to buy cheap products" - and this is very true, for both cheap pipe and digital organs...</FONT></P>


<FONT face=Verdana>Whatver you're going to buy - look out for quality, not for the cheapest price. And: There is no organ in the market which won't need care and maintainance. But high-quality organs will typically need less service and will last much longer.</FONT></P>

[Guest]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

The problem with most post-war pipe organs is that the early electric actions are failing and are expensive to replace. Modern digital actions are said to be long-lived, but if we compare then to a decent tracker action then they're not! But that's a different debate entirely.

Nigel

[buzzyreed]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

Arnie,

Great to hear some insisde stuff about the organs!

For years I fought with a Rodgers 530, it was a 'deal' from a Rodgers tech who sold it to us for $2000, I think, so I guess I have no right to complain about it, but I will.

From day one it started to fall apart. The bizzare light indicator for the pistons lost one light after another. The swell shoe sorta is like rubbing cheap metal against cheap metal. I could be wrong on this, but I swear to God the reeds were going out of tune one by, one but I don't think that could happen in a digital organ. The pedal board.. where should I begin?

Well I no longer play for that church, but at least I know that I was not crazy. The Allen guy couldn't belive that it was giving me such trouble. I should have explained to him that it was one of them buildt in Italy on the cheap.


I guess for $2000 it was a steal and I shouldn't complain as there is a lot of literature you can acutally play on it.

Anywhoo...

Buzzz

[buzzyreed]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

Both my Allen beasts will out live me,but I am not sure if anyone will desire the particular sound from either of them. Tthey will still be functioning just as the day they were built, with the exception of the speakers which are starting to turn to mush.

[Guest]

Re: Life expectancy of a digital church organ

I'm wondering about the life expectancy of the actual speaker cones. Our community has a 1985 Allen, and I'm wondering how much longer the cones will hold up.

Any thoughts?