Allen 301-B speakers?

[Arden]

I just got an Allen 301-B (with the 32' pedal stops) and I need to get speakers. So, can I hook it up to a set of high end stereo speakers to check it out?

These speakers are on ebay: Allen Organ HC 13U 3-way Speaker Will they work?

What speakers DO I need?

Thanks,
Arden

[myorgan]

Arden,

I believe with that organ, you can use HC-10, HC-11, HC-12, or even Monitor II speakers. The HC-13U speakers you saw on eBay are no longer available. I've never used them, so I cannot make a valid recommendation. My most recent ADC organ came with 6 Monitor II speakers, so I know they'll work with yours, but by far the most popular speaker of that era was the HC-12 because it would handle the 32' pedal stops better than most. Even the MOS-2 (your organ is a MOS-1), ADC, and some MDS organs would use an HC-12 for the 32' stops.

So far, I have around 20 HC-12 speakers and more than 20 HC-14/HC-15 speakers, and I have nothing bad to say about the HC-12 speakers (other than the surrounds needing to be replaced every 20-30 years or so).

Michael

P.S. Also, try using the search feature to search for other Allen Speaker information from previous threads.

[Arden]

Thank you. That's very helpful. Does anyone know if I can just use regular stereo type speakers?

[myorgan]

Thank you. That's very helpful. Does anyone know if I can just use regular stereo type speakers?

Arden,

That goes beyond my level of expertise, so we'll wait for the Allen techs to weigh in. I do know that Allen's speakers are 3-way with the crossovers on the speakers, and they aren't powered. Something makes me think they are all 4Ω (ohms), but that depends on whether they are alone or wired in series or parallel, and I'm not up on that stuff. I just know what I can do with my organ speakers (all Allen), and can do it without worrying about whether or not the components will be compatible.

Sorry I couldn't help more. That's why I suggested searching for other threads on this Forum about Allen speakers, because I know I've seen the specifications somewhere. Recently too.

Michael

[don60]

Allen amplifiers (probably S-100 in this case) are designed to drive loads of 4 ohms or greater, so any ordinary stereo speakers (almost always 8 ohms) would be fine on impedance.

The main concern is power handling capability, especially at low frequencies. Organs are capable of producing continuous tones down to 16 Hz, and ordinary speakers cannot take the punishment of reproducing such signals at high power levels for any length of time. Blown fuses or blown drivers will result if one gets carried away on the volume.

Yet another concern is that ported (bass reflex) speakers cannot be driven below their lower cutoff frequencies with any substantial power without causing mechanical damage to the woofer. (Large cone excursions build up quickly as the frequency drops, and the speaker can easily tear itself apart.)

Having provided all these cautions, I will add that using "ordinary" home speakers at modest power levels is perfectly OK for testing your organ. Just don't expect them to handle the frequency and power ranges needed to give satisfying results from a classical organ. Watch for excessive movement of the woofer cones if you try the 32' stops, and keep the volume down.

Long term, it is hard to beat the Allen cabinets for price and performance. As Michael points out, the sealed box HC 12 speakers were used for many years for low-frequency work, especially 32' stops. The newer, ported HC 14/15 cabinets (still in production, incidentally) cannot cope with the bottom octave of 32' stops (see above caution about cone excursions), but they have a smoother response with extended high-frequency capability. They also play more loudly on modest power by virtue of their ported design. I just picked up a set of HC 15s for $100 a piece, a typical price if you watch eBay and Craigslist and perhaps check with non-Allen organ dealers who may have some left from a trade-in. Anything new, whether a genuine organ speaker or a high-end stereo speaker, is going to set you back 8 to 10 times this amount at a minimum.

[davidecasteel]

Of course, there ARE speakers other than organ speakers that can handle the powerful low tones--some intended for guitars might be a possibility, or any of the good subwoofers. Ones capable of handling 32' pedal tones at satisfactory intensity will not be cheap--probably much more expensive than the ones provided originally by Allen.

David

[Arden]

Thank you for all your wisdom!! I will take it all under consideration. An ebay guy has 4 HC-13u speakers. I've Googled Allen speakers to try and find the differences but have been unsuccessful. Will these work, or should I just keep searching. I DID test the amps tonight, low volume just to be sure I have a working console before I pay to have it moved from the garage into the house. I've been burned so many times in the past with promises that "Oh, we played it last week." I understand it's MY fault for not checking every key with every tab, but it's been a great ride. This is the organ of my dreams!! I've always wanted thumb presets and toe tabs. Hope I'm calling them correctly. I loved my old Allen C-1 but it developed more problems that I was equipped to cope with.

[don60]

The HC 13s according to Allen service literature were dumbed-down HC 14/15 cabinets. Tweeter and mid are the same between the two designs, but the 13 has a smaller woofer and less capable bass response. Look at the eBay picture in comparison with the picture of the HC 14 on Allen's Web site, and you will noticed the substantial difference. Allen used the 13 only on divisions without 16' or 32' stops for this reason.

Personally, I would hold out for a pair of HC 14s (veneered cabinet) or 15s (utility cabinet) and add a crossover to a subbass channel to handle the 32' stops. Mid-grade subwoofers usually have the stereo crossover and a subbass amp built in, so you would not have to touch the Allen wiring or amplifiers. Of course, as David, Michael, and I have emphasized above, getting good response at 16 Hz is not easy or cheap. A Definitive Technology "cube" series sub for $500 is not going to do the job (trust me--I tried one); you are looking at more like $2000 to get a really good active sub or perhaps half that for a passive sub that will need an outboard crossover and amplifier.

If you go the used route on a subbass channel, the gold standard in passive Allen cabinets is the B-40, rather a large speaker but very capable. Another S-100 amp would provide plenty of power for it in a small room, and you would then have the setup the factory used later in the digital era when the HC 12 was discontinued. The same seller who is offering the HC 13 cabinets occasionally has a B-40 for sale; you might inquire to see whether he currently has one on hand.

Michael also likes the smaller B-20 Allen cabinet (in fact, I sold him mine), and in the right setting that one might do the job for you as well. I see one, a bit overpriced in my opinion, on eBay at the moment.

Room size and cabinet placement are critical in getting good bottom-end response out of a speaker, whether a full-range cabinet or a dedicated sub. I was not impressed by the B-20, but Michael says it works well for him in a much different setting than my living room. A critical feature is getting acoustic energy to couple from the near field into the entire room, and the literature is full of advice on setups that accomplish this goal (putting the speaker in a corner, etc.).

Personally, I am not a fan of the HC 12 for any application. Although we say it has "better" bass response than the ported cabinets, it still rolls off in the usual seal-cabinet fashion and will not have anything resembling a flat response in the bottom octave of a 32' stop where you really need it the most. Add to that the almost universal need to refoam or recone the woofer when you acquire it, its relative inefficiency, and its rather lackluster high-frequency response, and I see no need to purchase one or more for your application. It's a different matter if you already had some on hand; they are not terrible speakers and can be repaired and made to work well. But if you are spending new money on your installation, there are better choices. HC 14/15 cabinets are much more plentiful and usually better priced, and if you go the subbass channel route mentioned above you get the best possible sound.

[don60]

Follow-up on the B-20: I just took another look at the eBay listing. As I figured, it once again comes to us from our friend in Florida who is selling off bits and pieces from downsized organ installations. What troubles me about this listing is that the pictured cabinet does not look like a B-20, which is a ported design. (Look at the picture on Allen's site.) I am not aware of any variants on the current design that put the port in the back; the speaker I sold Michael was quite old but looked exactly like the current Allen photo.

I would probably avoid this item even if the price were better. This seller has a history of problematic item descriptions; you would be OK if what you see in the photo is exactly what you want, but as far as trusting model numbers that are quoted in the descriptions, it is buyer beware.

[Arden]

THANK YOU!! You guys are absolutely THE best! This is the best forum I've ever belonged to. Every organ question I've ever posted has been answered fully and without a bunch of smart-ass responses. I've been on the Allen site - several times - looking for pics or descriptions of the speakers but have not found them yet. Can you tell me what - Oh! Never mind!! I just went and clicked on - where else? - Midi and Audio and there's pics of all the speakers. When I had my C1, I asked Allen a question and they supplied me with a wiring diagram. I don't know of any manufacturer who still supports their products over 50 years later. The site gives me dims and descriptions, but it's you all who fill in the blanks and also warn me about shady vendors on FleaBay. Can't thank you enough.

[Arden]

I have a separate S-100 amp for the pedals mounted on the right side. Will I still need an additional sub-amp for the bass?
Thanks for answering all my questions.

[Arden]

I know this is not the correct place to ask this, so please repost in the correct place. I want to get a book (or books) about the stops. My Hammond has drawbars and of course no names. Organs I've had in the past were named 4, 8', 16' flute, tibia, diapason, etc. The Allen has words I can't even pronounce. I'd like to find a guide to stops and combinations.

Thanks again.

[tucsondave]

No, to additional amp question.

If you don't have the owner's manual I can send a pdf if you PM me an email address. It's too large to post here.

td

[myorgan]

I have a separate S-100 amp for the pedals mounted on the right side. Will I still need an additional sub-amp for the bass?

Arden,

Check my gallery to see if you have a Sub-Bass Crossover. On Page 8, you will see the Sub-Bass Crossover card (green), to the left of my Bass Lift card (off-white) in my ADC-4300 organ. Go back a few pages in my gallery, and I have several of Allen's speaker styles there.

I also noticed that your S-100 amp for the pedals you pictured is one that would have been used for the MOS-2 organs. You can tell that by looking to the left of the 2 round things, and you'll see a wire going from one opening to another about 3-4 openings away. That wire is a jumper used for MOS-2 amps.

I know this is not the correct place to ask this, so please repost in the correct place. I want to get a book (or books) about the stops. My Hammond has drawbars and of course no names. Organs I've had in the past were named 4, 8', 16' flute, tibia, diapason, etc. The Allen has words I can't even pronounce. I'd like to find a guide to stops and combinations.

Try the Encyclopedia of Organ Stops. They may have what you're looking for. Organ stops (not just Allen's) are generally in German, French, or English--in that order. On a recent trip to Germany, they were amazed I could sing from their hymnal with the right pronunciation. When I explained I was a musician and had studied German Leid, they understood. Speaking French helps too.

First, let me recommend you download the owner's manual for your organ at Allen's website. My link is to the PDF file for your organ. On page 17ff, are Allen's suggestions for registration of the organ, and a brief description of the stops. If you have an Allen Tone card order form, the stops are described there as well. Meanwhile, here's a brief description. Please forgive me if I insult your intelligence, but I'll assume you don't know anything so you don't have to say anything publicly.

Please keep in mind that there are always exceptions/additions to the following information.

• On the organ, there are 4 basic families of organ tone:
  • Principal/Diapason (French: Montre)--Typical organ tone unique to the organ.
  • Flutes (German: Gedeckt, French: Flöte)--Imitative of flutes, recorders, etc.
  • Strings (i.e. Salicional, Dulciana)--Imitative of orchestral strings.
  • Reeds (French: Trompette, Clarion; German: Krummhorn, English: Clarinet)--Imitative of brass and reed instruments.
• Stops are organized from left to right by the length of the pipe (i.e. 16', 8', 4', 2-2/3', 2', 1-1/3', 1-3/5', 1').
• Mixtures (Roman numerals), Reeds, and Couplers are listed to the right, in that order.
• Within each pitch group, stops are organized from loudest (left) to softest (right). Generally, that means they are listed as: Diapason/Prinzipal, Flute, Strings.

Forget how registration "should" be done. Just begin imitating what your books say you should be using, then make educated guesses from there and use what sounds good to you. You now have a panoply of sounds available to you.

Also, arguably the correct terminology for the buttons under the manuals are Pistons (Presets are pre-set and unchangeable). The ones on the left (probably 1-10 on your organ) are General Pistons and affect the entire organ, while the ones under the keyboards (probably 6 on your organ) are Divisional Pistons and affect only the manual they are located beneath.

The Toe Studs on the left are generally copies of 1-6 or 5-10 of the General Pistons, while the toe studs to the right (1-6) are the Divisionals for the Pedals.

I hope you find something usable in what I've provided above. May you enjoy your new instrument for years to come!

Michael

P.S. The "B" in your model number simply indicates the organ is in a B-style console which is more classical. "C" consoles were the Contemporary design and lower-profile.

[davidecasteel]

Although the on-line link posted above is very useful, if you prefer something you can hold in your hands, author Stevens Irwin wrote several books dealing with the subject. His Dictionary of Pipe Organ Stops is quite good. He also wrote one for Electronic Organ stops and for Hammond Organ stops. This link (amazon) seems to have all 3 books available: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_...2964&rnid=1000 . One of the Pipe Organ books also has a section on conversion of pipe organ registrations to Hammond drawbar settings.

David