Rodgers Masterpiece 968 room modeling

[Guest]

Here in Vladivostok, Russia, many thousands of miles from the nearest Rodgers dealer, I just helped the Academy of Arts install their first ever organ - Rodgers Masterpiece 968. I have experience installing a Trillium 927 in our church and smaller Insignia organs in other nearby churches. The Masterpiece 968 came with one S-800 amplifier and 8 speaker cabinets (two of which are subwoofers and the other six all the same, regular mid-range). Unlike our Trillium 927, it did not come with the two smaller speakers and an S-200 amplifier for the specific purpose of "room modeling". My question: does the room modeling function work without the specially dedicated smaller speakers? If yes, what are the exact steps to follow in the console display to turn on the room modeling function and to experiment with the various combinations of room sizes and wall materials to get the best sound for the Academy auditorium's relatively dead acoustics? I called Rodgers in Hillsboro but it was toward the end of the work day and the people who might be able to answer were no longer there. If possible I need to know the basics about this today or tomorrow. Thanks in advance to any of you who would like to lend a hand to insure the best installation. Rev. Daniel Maurer, Most Holy Mother of God Roman Catholic Church, Vladivostok, Russia.

[arie v]

Hi,

This Rodgers "room modelling", really is just some sort of reverb system. I heard this setup in several church settings, and to be honest, the organ would have sounded better without it. The system works best in a very small room.

The problem isn't so much that the reverb is terrible, just that if one sits much closer to the reverb speakers, One gets the effect of hearing a reflected sound bounce before the main sound.

You don't state how large the auditorium is, but you may want beefier amplifiers and speakers on the organ, to give a more solid sound.

AV

[Josh]

Reverb...

We've noticed an increase in the use of the word 'modeling' with organ technologies by other manufacturers in the recent years. Don't be confused. These are still old sampled sound technologies. NOT true physical modeling like Viscount's Physis Technology. And in my opinion, reverb is nothing more than a mask for what the manufacturer doesn't want you to hear. A real pipe organ can't hide behind fake reverb. It has to sound good in the space it was built. So why should an electronic organ be any different? In the south, we call this sort of thing 'lipstick on a pig'. No matter what you do with a pig to dress it up, it still is a pig. While Viscount has patents on Physical Modeling Technology, I understand and accept they can't control what manufacturers say and do, obviously. If modeling is so bad, why say it with your own platforms when you haven't for the past TWENTY FOUR YEARS? Seems like an attempt at alignment to me. I hope people see through it.

If you (person reading this) haven't heard a Viscount with Physis Technology voiced and installed by my firm, you have no right to speak about it. I'd gladly personally show you one of our installations. Afterwards, if you had a chip on your shoulders, you'll probably ask if you can eat your words about the 'top two'. To me, since I know the worldwide industry, the term 'top two' only comes from someone who is delusional or ignorant, because it's not even true. Remember, because someone says their in the top two doesn't mean it's necessarily true. 'The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.' I suggest you do the same. And enjoy some good organ playing in the process. Contact us, if you'd like to hear a good digital organ option for your church. Or send daggers my way on behalf of the top two to substantiate our good work even further. Either way, I look forward to hearing from you!

BTW, this was not an attack on AV. His commentary here made complete sense.

Hi,

This Rodgers "room modelling", really is just some sort of reverb system. I heard this setup in several church settings, and to be honest, the organ would have sounded better without it. The system works best in a very small room.

The problem isn't so much that the reverb is terrible, just that if one sits much closer to the reverb speakers, One gets the effect of hearing a reflected sound bounce before the main sound.

You don't state how large the auditorium is, but you may want beefier amplifiers and speakers on the organ, to give a more solid sound.

AV

[Guest]

Thanks to those who responded. As it turned out, my worries were for nothing. Today during my second time helping with the installation I showed the managers of the installation process at the Academy how to access the room modeling function: it is very easy to use, works without any specially dedicated speakers, has an uncountable number of permutations, and in their somewhat acoustically dead hall does make a significant difference for the better.

Response to AV: Thanks for your input. I remember you and your invaluable help from 15 years ago on another organ project here in Vladivostok. Thanks again for that. The auditorium hall is about 55-60 feet long, 35-40 feet wide, only 15 feet high, with plaster covered concrete walls. To us the organ sounds best when put on "Medium Church", Plaster Walls, and -15.00 ambient level (whatever that last means. On these settings the sound is considerably fuller without a sense of artificial reverb. When first plugged in two days ago, the sound decay was too abrupt. At that time I thought they did not have the necessary additional speakers to access the sound modeling function. I was relieved today to see that it works with the regular allotment of divisional speakers. Now it sounds richer and not artificial. I admire Rodgers sound technology and the flexibility and user-friendliness of their control system.

[Josh]

That's just excellent. I think it's incredible how it came together for your specific situation.

[radagast]

We've noticed an increase in the use of the word 'modeling' with organ technologies by other manufacturers in the recent years. Don't be confused. These are still old sampled sound technologies. NOT true physical modeling like Viscount's Physis Technology. And in my opinion, reverb is nothing more than a mask for what the manufacturer doesn't want you to hear. A real pipe organ can't hide behind fake reverb. It has to sound good in the space it was built. So why should an electronic organ be any different? In the south, we call this sort of thing 'lipstick on a pig'. No matter what you do with a pig to dress it up, it still is a pig. While Viscount has patents on Physical Modeling Technology, I understand and accept they can't control what manufacturers say and do, obviously. If modeling is so bad, why say it with your own platforms when you haven't for the past TWENTY FOUR YEARS? Seems like an attempt at alignment to me. I hope people see through it.

If you (person reading this) haven't heard a Viscount with Physis Technology voiced and installed by my firm, you have no right to speak about it. I'd gladly personally show you one of our installations. Afterwards, if you had a chip on your shoulders, you'll probably ask if you can eat your words about the 'top two'. To me, since I know the worldwide industry, the term 'top two' only comes from someone who is delusional or ignorant, because it's not even true. Remember, because someone says their in the top two doesn't mean it's necessarily true. 'The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.' I suggest you do the same. And enjoy some good organ playing in the process. Contact us, if you'd like to hear a good digital organ option for your church. Or send daggers my way on behalf of the top two to substantiate our good work even further. Either way, I look forward to hearing from you!

BTW, this was not an attack on AV. His commentary here made complete sense.

You say "Don't be confused", then you go ahead and confuse the situation. The Room Modeling is not about the technology used to produce the stops, but in emulating the room it's playing in. You can protest as much as you want, but the fact is: there is such a thing as modeling acoustics. It's called convolution reverb. Your tone sounds very arrogant and insulting. I doubt you will get many customers with posts like yours.

[Josh]

I wasn't referring specifically to this one specific use of the word modeling only. It's become used more frequently by all competitors across the board. And it is used to explain technologies that previously said 'sampled'. I don't appreciate personal attacks though. And see why many people don't like to voice their opinion on the forum out of fear of being personally attacked. If you met me, you would know I'm the farthest thing from arrogant. And we have many happy customers and continue to get more. Three generations, over 1200 organ installations, and a desire to do what's right by God. God and the church are all I need satisfy. I accept your opinion, but try next time to know the person before making a vial remark and attack about their character. I was foolish for thinking I could add something of good and decent value to this forum, and won't do it again.

[myorgan]

Canon Regular,

Welcome to the Forum, and I hope you enjoy your time here. I also hope you were able to get your question answered sufficiently. It appears you did, and thank you for sharing the details of the room size, construction, and the settings that worked for you.

Folks, should we start a separate thread on "room modeling" vs. "reverb" vs a non-related (to the Rodgers in Russia) "Physis Technology" to have the discussion of the "superiority" of one system over another. I'm not sure the extraneous discussion helped answer Canon's initial question in a direct manner, but it is certainly worth discussing. What do y'all think?

Michael

[SBurton]

What do y'all think?

I agree!

When I read Josh's response, I wondered how Viscount's "Physis Technology" applied to the discussion of an existing Rodgers installation? :-\

Obviously Josh is rather passionate on the subject.
Let's have a rational discussion rather than a gorilla leaping out of the bushes thumping his chest.
If this "Physis Technology" is so good, it should stand on it's own merit.

[don60]

I heard a small Viscount with Physis technology a couple of years ago. I like the idea of creating the sounds in real time rather than playing back the same sample of someone else's sound over and over. And I liked the individual stops on the Viscount very much. Ensemble was tough to judge but seemed reasonable.

Viscount's voicing is a matter of taste. Their standard models or samples are way too European and harsh for my ears.

[radagast]

I wasn't referring specifically to this one specific use of the word modeling only. It's become used more frequently by all competitors across the board. And it is used to explain technologies that previously said 'sampled'. I don't appreciate personal attacks though. And see why many people don't like to voice their opinion on the forum out of fear of being personally attacked. If you met me, you would know I'm the farthest thing from arrogant. And we have many happy customers and continue to get more. Three generations, over 1200 organ installations, and a desire to do what's right by God. God and the church are all I need satisfy. I accept your opinion, but try next time to know the person before making a vial remark and attack about their character. I was foolish for thinking I could add something of good and decent value to this forum, and won't do it again.

You are free to voice your opinion, but the thread isn't about sound generating technology. And when you use words like "delusional", "ignorant", and "fool", it doesn't come across very well. That sounds arrogant. If you are not arrogant, then you should pick your words more carefully.

[Josh]

I agree. Let's start a new thread so we can discuss. The reverb discussion does apply to Physis Technology as well, because it is generated through physical modeling too. I look forward to adding anything I can to a positive conversation!

[myorgan]

I agree. Let's start a new thread so we can discuss. The reverb discussion does apply to Physis Technology as well, because it is generated through physical modeling too. I look forward to adding anything I can to a positive conversation!

The new thread has been started here

[Hamman]

If you (person reading this) haven't heard a Viscount with Physis Technology voiced and installed by my firm, you have no right to speak about it. I'd gladly personally show you one of our installations. Afterwards, if you had a chip on your shoulders, you'll probably ask if you can eat your words about the 'top two'. To me, since I know the worldwide industry, the term 'top two' only comes from someone who is delusional or ignorant, because it's not even true. Remember, because someone says their in the top two doesn't mean it's necessarily true. 'The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.' I suggest you do the same. And enjoy some good organ playing in the process. Contact us, if you'd like to hear a good digital organ option for your church. Or send daggers my way on behalf of the top two to substantiate our good work even further. Either way, I look forward to hearing from you!

BTW, this was not an attack on AV. His commentary here made complete sense.

Soooo Josh.... not to keep this going but unless I missed something....I saw nobody's comments, good or bad, on Viscount......so why the harsh tone up front? Also the presumption of somebody having a "chip on their shoulder" sorta bewilders me. Suggesting your way (Viscount) is wise over the "free choice" of an individual as fool(ish) is arrogant in my book. "Was not an attack on AV....who then was it an attack on??......using your words. Seems to me you came out swinging when it was just a simple question about a installation......