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  • #61
    BO,

    I'm used to being misunderstood.;-) I was referring to inside the speaker cabinet and comparing that to inside the individual pipes. I believe the things you're talking about are referring to manufacturer or connections defects (reversing wire polarity), and constructive/destructive interference one the sound comes out of the speaker(s). Anyone certainly knows the sounds interact once the sound exits the speakers and begin blending in the air. I was referring to inside the cabinet itself.

    I guess I should have been more clear.
    (the air inside the speaker isn't being affected)
    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

    Comment


    • #62
      I wonder whether the research departments at the major organ builders have actually conducted listening and instrumentation tests to learn about the deterioration of sound quality versus the number and pitch of notes reproduced by a given channel. Yes, I know, it seems obvious that they would have done so--but did they?

      I have this nagging feeling that the engineers relied primarily on intuition for dividing the sounds among the channels. Their results suggest as much, since they are all over the place: Allen, at least in their high-end organs, uses the real time adaptive process that was discussed earlier--notes are assigned to the "least used" channels without regard for keeping stops or divisions in a static location. Conversely, Viscount is using a traditional approach of dedicating two channels to each division (although the assignments can be altered in software). Johannus, at least until recently, dispersed stops in each division over four or more channels using a static assignment that can actually be altered using their voicing software and the movement of resistors on the mainboard.

      My point is that if objective testing had revealed a clearly superior method of assigning notes to channels, all of the major builders would likely be using it. Either the testing was not done, or its results were inconclusive. Either way, I suspect that intuitive engineering is very much at work here.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by don60 View Post
        Allen, at least in their high-end organs, uses the real time adaptive process that was discussed earlier--notes are assigned to the "least used" channels without regard for keeping stops or divisions in a static location. Conversely, Viscount is using a traditional approach of dedicating two channels to each division (although the assignments can be altered in software). Johannus, at least until recently, dispersed stops in each division over four or more channels using a static assignment that can actually be altered using their voicing software and the movement of resistors on the mainboard.
        Don,

        You must be referring to later Allens. I know all my ADC Allens are all 2 channels per manual, and they combined the Great and Pedals with just 2 channels sharing both divisions. On one of the Allens (4300), I got another amp and split the Great and Pedal, and have been quite satisfied with the results.

        I'm just seeking clarity regarding the generation of Allens. Wasn't it in the MDS era that they began splitting C/C# and then later providing more channels per division?

        Michael
        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
        • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by don60 View Post
          My point is that if objective testing had revealed a clearly superior method of assigning notes to channels, all of the major builders would likely be using it. Either the testing was not done, or its results were inconclusive. Either way, I suspect that intuitive engineering is very much at work here.
          I suspect that the optimal method of assigning notes to channels is highly dependent upon the number of channels, the type of speakers, the type and specification of the organ, and the room containing it. In other words, there is no one optimal method.
          -Admin

          Allen 965
          Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
          Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
          Hauptwerk 4.2

          Comment


          • #65
            I believe the MDS organs were similar to the ADC in their channelization, with no C/C# split. However, MDS organs seemed to have fewer channels for a given size than their ADC counterparts in many cases.

            I was referring to the latest literature on the current models that talks about directing notes to the least-used channels.

            Comment


            • #66
              Michael,

              I don't know of any standard MDS models that had C/C# splitting, though there could have been large custom models in which this was done. That concept was introduced as a standard feature early in the Renaissance era. Even the small "Renaissance II" models with only four cage outputs generally have C/C# splits on many voices. But with only two channels per division (and with the great and pedal sharing their two), this scheme doesn't really solve the problem of overloading the channels, though it might make individual stops sound more realistic, and keep the notes from interacting quite so much.

              Typically, you might have the 8' principal using channel 1 (for example) for the "C" whole-tone scale and using channel 2 for the "C#" series. This holds only for the first octave, and in the second octave, the assignments are reversed, and so on up the keyboard. You can see that this really does move the tones around, at least for a given stop. The 8' flute would then use the opposite of that scheme, also alternating by octaves. As a result, you could play those two stops together, and on any single key you'd have them coming from different speakers. Same thing with the unison and sharp ranks of a celeste stop, and so on.

              But when you think about it, this really offers little if any improvement over the traditional way of dividing up stops between two channels, once you are playing more than one or two stops at the same time. When I was playing at my former church on an Allen Renaissance, I had it arranged so that the C and C# channels of the great were separated by about 20 feet, up over the choir loft, and I "think" the movement of the sound between the two chambers produced a more open and "spread-out" feeling. But I can't be certain that it was truly better than just having the stops divided into two regular channels.

              In later Renaissance models, they began to use a scheme that would rotate the notes of a single stop through four channels. I think at that time they also began to use more audio channels per division in the better organs, dropping down to smaller amps and speakers, but having about the same total power output as previously. I haven't heard one of these, or didn't know it if I did. I suppose this scheme could work even better at giving a sense of "space" to the stops than the simple C/C# plan, but as long as they keep on cramming multiple stops into the same four channels, the issues of signal jamming, compression, and distortion remain.

              In truth, I hear a lot of organs, new and old, some with many audio channels, some with few, some with elaborate channeling schemes and others with just two channels per division without any interlacing of any kind. And I can't say that any one plan works much better than another. As long as there is adequate amplifier power and ample speaker equipment for a given room, the results can be good if the installation is done well and the voicing is creative and musical.
              John
              ----------
              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

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              • #67
                I keep coming back to the new International Touring Organ (ITO) of Cameron Carpenter. I ran across this on a website today. Do with it what you will. It seems to be somewhat related to the original goofy idea I proposed.

                "The ITO fills up a 90-foot stage from end to end, as compared to a pipe organ, which would be 10 times that size. Its console, which consists of five keyboards and a pedal board, is 64 square feet, weighs 2,000 pounds, and can be broken down into five pieces. It contains a primary CPU connected by a network cable to industrial-level servers, which feed their signals to six eight-channel power amplifiers, which then drive 10 speaker carts and eight subwoofer cabinets. Each of the speakers are 6 feet tall, and half of the subwoofer cabinets are larger than a refrigerator."

                I believe that means there are 48 discreet channels going through 48 external speaker cabinets.

                The organ - so I understand it has Marshall & Ogletree samples CC has selected. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT SPECIFIC PROCESS WAS USED TO OBTAIN THESE SAMPLES. These are running using the highest available digital to analog chip rates. He can, so I've read, select more samples "on the fly". I BELIEVE the ones he is using are all held in memory while the organ is running. I have no idea how many discreet data channels are operating, or at what kinds of speed the data is being processed. But it appears there are several Computer Processing Units at work.

                I think what intrigues me is trying to follow the many individual samples through the intricate pipeline of this instrument to the speakers. In that regard, I do think this instrument is breaking new ground. And I continue to believe Carpenter will ultimately blend the classic church organ, the theater organ and a synthesizer into one instrument. That may produce new music compositions. And the pipe purists who say, "This isn't a real organ" won't have anything that can play the resulting musical literature.

                I still haven't heard this organ live. But I plan to if he comes anywhere near my area. The instrument may not live up to the hype. But the man can play.

                BO
                Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                I'm a Methodist organist.
                I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                Became a Technology Specialist.
                Retired from Education after 32 years.

                Comment


                • #68
                  With that spec as a trailer, I might actually look at Mr. Carpenter's schedule to see where he is performing. The organ may be worth seeing. A sound system better than Jeff Beck used might actually pry me away from my pleasant music room.
                  I've been overwhelmed by his media campaign, which has been too promotional for my taste. His tracks on Pipe Dreams have been less amazing than the guy at the national Cathedral that did Sorcerer's Apprentice on pipes. Five manuals doesn't do it for me either, I have 30" arms and find two manuals enough of a sound pallette, although easier sound changes than tabs above the manual will be my plan.
                  Last edited by indianajo; 12-12-2014, 09:53 AM.
                  city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    indianajo,

                    Cameron Carpenter - at least so I think - seems to have a goal and a plan to achieve it. I'm sure he must have a pretty hefty ego. And some of his thinking may be based on that. I think he wants to attract a younger and larger audience of concert goers than typically attend organ concerts. If you're going to catch fish, you need to go where the fish are located and present bait that appeals to them.

                    I've been to a few rock concerts. The sonic bombast of those events held little personal joy for me. I'm not one who holds deep appreciation for an electric guitar being played with distortion and attitude or "style". I freely admit that this is my prejudice. The sound is a a taste I never quite acquired. But those events are often packed with excited "concert goers". I compare that with the far smaller sedate "crowds" that attend most organ concerts.

                    Consider a population of college aged "kids". What is going to attract them? Virgil Fox did tours to many colleges back in the 80's with his electric organs. Here we had a guy who qualified for Senior Citizen discounts trying to appeal to the college crowd. He wore a rust colored tux when he came to our community back in my college years; lots of gyrations and upper body movement at the organ; lights shining on the pedalboard while he wore rhinestone accented shoes and a light show on stage when the music got really loud. And he got a lot of folks to come hear him.

                    Carpenter is, I believe, about 34. His look and persona is probably more like the performers you'd see in a modern rock concert. For some of us (perhaps most), that would probably represent a distinct negative. But - like it or not - our days on Earth performing and/or attending organ concerts may be numbered. A generation of "kids" may not be exposed to the organ as an instrument except in attending weddings and funerals. The figures I see don't indicate that church attendance is growing at an alarming pace.

                    I'm sure that some will say Carpenter is trying to dumb-down the organ to appeal to young people. And that may well be a fair statement. If he does "theater organ"-like renditions of "Alfie" to attract them, but exposes them to Bach, Bernstein and Saint Saens elsewhere in the concert, that may be a plus - depending on all kinds of factors.

                    As a teenager, I had less sophisticated taste than I do now. My appreciation for some things evolved over time. And that may be true for the young people who attend Carpenter's "Happenings" or whatever you may call them.

                    I do think the man has strong organ skills. So did Virgil Fox and E. Power Biggs. So do many organists. We can debate who had (or has) better abilities, though some of that would ultimately be based on personal opinions due to what WE INDIVIDUALLY appreciate.

                    It may take a media bombast and considerable hype to pry younger folks away from whatever they are doing to actually attend an event. And a big, flashy MILLION DOLLAR instrument may be part of the hype. But I am willing to keep an open mind on whether Cameron Carpenter's goal is noble or destructive.

                    BO

                    P.S. I remember reading in program notes that the violins or other instrument owned by certain well-regarded concert musicians were insured for "a million dollars". So let's not get on the soapbox that using instrument value to appeal to people is new.
                    Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                    Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                    Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                    We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                    Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                    I'm a Methodist organist.
                    I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                    Became a Technology Specialist.
                    Retired from Education after 32 years.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Surely anything that expands appreciation for any type of music is of some value, and if that "thing" expands appreciation for our dying dinosaurs, all the better. Remember Andy's signature encouraging the fact that we play being more important than what or how well. Churches are changing their liturgy to attract young people for the purpose of sustaining the church in and for future generations. Cameron is trying to do the same thing for the instrument that these same churches are forsaking. He comes to Atlanta end of January and will play three symphony style pieces (organ concertos) with the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra. #2 is Poulenc and #3 is the Saint Saen's #3. I plan to be there and I rarely do concerts. (I realize that he's probably doing it because he LIKES the organ more than any heart-felt obligation to help it live on.)

                      For those not familiar with his ITO (Int'l Touring Organ), it combines classical, theater, and synthesizer sounds on one "portable" five manual console. The pedal board adds extra notes top and bottom, reverse colored like Hammond presets. It even has a toy counter. The speaker cabinets are designed with appearance in mind using colored lights to make even the shipping enclosures part of the show. Folk like Fox and Liberace did more to make their respective instruments paletteable to the masses than any before. The Atlanta gig, what with having the symphony, may still be aimed at a rather narrow audience but I believe that a lot of his other performances have more popular appeal.
                      Roland Atelier AT-90s, AT-80s, AT-70, 30, and 15. Roland VR-760 combo
                      Yamaha S-90, Kurzweil PC-3x, Casio Privia PX-330, Roland E-80, G-70, BK-5, Leslie 760, 820
                      Moved on:
                      Allen 3MT/Hauptwerk, Technics GA1, Yamaha HX1, AR80, numerous Hammonds, including 2 M's, an L, 2 A-100's, XP-2, XM-1/1c, & an XK-3. Roland Atelier AT-30, 60r, 80, & 20r(2 units), and a slew of Leslies (147, 142, 760, 900, 330).
                      Korg Triton Le-61, Casio Privia PX-310 & 110, and Kurzweils: PC-2x, SP-88, Pro-III, K1000

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I don't think Cameron Carpenter dumb-downs or in any way musically panders to an audience. He certainly did not at the solo recital I saw him play last spring. All heavyweight classical composers and heavyweight pieces, and from the concert programs he posts on Facebook, that seems to be the rule rather than exception.

                        Does he include pop standards like "Alfie" and "Sleigh Ride" on his albums. He certainly does, but I think that's more a function of his eclecticism. BTW, "What's it all about, Aflie" was written 1966, nearly 50 years ago. Hardly the type of stuff the millennial generation relates to.


                        Although Virgil Fox's tours were primarily Bach only affairs, I think he made a more transparent effort to get youths to his concerts by how they were promoted and in the use of lightshows.

                        Like Fox, I think CC is very serious in his intent despite that fact his outspokenness and appearance rankle the old guard.

                        Virgil Fox's passion for music and justification for lightshows can be heard in an interview, a link to which is found in this thread:

                        http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...ith-Virgil-Fox

                        I think CC shares this passion but his approach is a reflection of the times
                        Last edited by Admin; 12-15-2014, 08:40 AM.
                        -Admin

                        Allen 965
                        Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                        Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                        Hauptwerk 4.2

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I agree, Admin.

                          I only got on this subject because of sharing the technical details about the new International Touring Organ. The electronic specifications did seem related to the original subject of this thread. Perhaps this is straying from the reservation a bit, but it was MY THREAD and I decided to pontificate a bit.

                          I will say one more thing. I do an homespun comedy act. I go around to churches and do the equivalent of an after-dinner speaker. I tell funny stories about growing up in the church. Generally, I've done it at 25-30 churches in our area. I usually do this in the church fellowship halls. I recently did one at a church that insisted we do the comedy in the Sanctuary to seat a larger audience. I was struck by how different the feel and atmosphere is in the Sanctuary. I've often told brides that POP LOVE SONGS done in a sanctuary often seem out of place because of the ambiance of a Sanctuary.

                          Carpenter - an avowed atheist - wants to escape the Sanctuary. To do so, he needed an instrument. Thus, the ITO. And building a portable pipe organ might have been possible. But I'm not sure it would have been practical - from many angles. So the people who put him down simply because he isn't playing a "REAL ORGAN" may be ignoring his goals. And I may be misreading his goals., I dunno.

                          I do feel he plays very well and that he has not done a lot of pandering and dumbing-down - at least not yet. He may have to do some to attract his target audience in the numbers he might want. Short of some tragedy, he probably has several decades ahead. It will be interesting to see how his grand plan develops and whether or not it works.

                          BO
                          Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                          Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                          Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                          We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                          Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                          I'm a Methodist organist.
                          I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                          Became a Technology Specialist.
                          Retired from Education after 32 years.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Bach-On View Post
                            Carpenter - an avowed atheist - wants to escape the Sanctuary. To do so, he needed an instrument. Thus, the ITO. And building a portable pipe organ might have been possible. But I'm not sure it would have been practical - from many angles. So the people who put him down simply because he isn't playing a "REAL ORGAN" may be ignoring his goals. And I may be misreading his goals., I dunno.
                            I don't think his atheism is his prime motivation getting the organ out of the church. He believes that the association of the organ and church, i.e. organ music is church music, is limiting and counterproductive (and I agree). Even if such an association is valid, with churches dumping their organs for contemporary fare, it is not a viable association.

                            In keeping with this, he has spoken about the limitations of pipe organs in general, the lack of suitable secular venues and the necessity of constantly adapting one's playing to the particular instrument one's performing on. An electronic substitute designed to his personal specifications is conducive to his goals from both a general and egocentric point of view.
                            -Admin

                            Allen 965
                            Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                            Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                            Hauptwerk 4.2

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              There was a portable pipe organ back in the beginning of the last century. Moller or Skinner built (?) it and it was in a couple of semi trailers. As I recall, it worked fairly well. Was eventually sold and permanently installed somewhere. It may have even been a WurliTzer.

                              I agree with the problem regarding the designation, or mis-designation, of a classical organ as a "church" organ. While they are entirely substitutable for each other, one is merely a once-popular use and let's face it, traditional sancturaries typically provide wonderful acoustics. Likewise, much of the classical fare was created for church use. Still I expect that use of a straight organ in the future will be as much concert halls and similar venues as traditional church services, of which certainly more than a few will endure. Particularly places that do it WELL. I've heard that Riverside Church with Virgil Fox playing the services was a transcending experience. I got to hear him do ONE hymn, Riverside style, and I remember it clearly 45 years later. Even today's contemporary singers, musicians, and worshipers would probably have found that to have been a wonderful experience.

                              I've always distinguished theater organists from classical organists by telling that the theater organist does his own arranging and orchestrating. But there are some classical organists, such as Fox, that were easily their equal or greater regarding improvisation and making the music, hymns in this case, come alive. Of course, I also remember one of my very few LOL instances when Virgil ended a big Bach piece with a pedal glissando.
                              Roland Atelier AT-90s, AT-80s, AT-70, 30, and 15. Roland VR-760 combo
                              Yamaha S-90, Kurzweil PC-3x, Casio Privia PX-330, Roland E-80, G-70, BK-5, Leslie 760, 820
                              Moved on:
                              Allen 3MT/Hauptwerk, Technics GA1, Yamaha HX1, AR80, numerous Hammonds, including 2 M's, an L, 2 A-100's, XP-2, XM-1/1c, & an XK-3. Roland Atelier AT-30, 60r, 80, & 20r(2 units), and a slew of Leslies (147, 142, 760, 900, 330).
                              Korg Triton Le-61, Casio Privia PX-310 & 110, and Kurzweils: PC-2x, SP-88, Pro-III, K1000

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                The large portable pipe organ was built by Moller and was used in England and was built as a touring organ for Reg Foort.
                                It was shipped to ,I believe, San Diego,California for a pizza restaurant and was later installed in Pasadena,California auditorium where it is still in operation.

                                Jerry F Bacon-Dallas,Tx
                                Jerry F Bacon-Dallas,Tx

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