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  • MDS organ with Ensemble

    Recently, I hooked up an Allen Ensemble to an MDS-25. When I switch to memory 2 and press general 1, rather than going to Ensemble preset 11, it goes back to 1.

    The organ midi base is 1 and the Ensemble is set at midi ch8. Am I missing something or does the MDS not transmit memory level info?

  • #2
    Anyone have thoughts?

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think the Ensemble module lets you program memory level 2 (or any other level) differently from level 1. So whatever you set on piston #1 at memory level 1 will always appear on piston #1, no matter what level you are in. Too bad, but that is a limitation of that module or that organ. It might work differently with Renaissance organs or with a newer Allen expander. Your owner's manual probably explains this situation.

      To be certain, I should try this out on my MDS-45 organ at church. My MIDI module is just an old original MDS Expander, but I believe it works the same way. I'll let you know if I discover anything different, but I do believe you've come up against a genuine limitation of the technology.

      Even with this limitation, it's amazing that the Allen expander modules integrate so well with the pistons. Back in the old days, we thought it was cool to have two "alterable" stops that could be programmed and used in any division. But whatever you stored in the alterables would be the same, regardless of which piston you pressed. Then, when MIDI came out with the MDS models, it was awesome to be able to store a different MIDI sound on every piston. It still amazes me today!
      John
      ----------
      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tschnuckel View Post
        Recently, I hooked up an Allen Ensemble to an MDS-25. When I switch to memory 2 and press general 1, rather than going to Ensemble preset 11, it goes back to 1.

        The organ midi base is 1 and the Ensemble is set at midi ch8. Am I missing something or does the MDS not transmit memory level info?
        I sold Allen Organs during late ADC, MDS and early Renaissance models. I wrote detailed instructions for my customers to help assign expander presets to MDS general pistons. I can’t find my instructions, however I did locate Allen’s instructions.

        ASSIGNING EXPANDER PRESETS TO GENERAL ORGAN PISTONS

        1. Select desired expander preset: Press PRESET, then UP or DOWN
        2. Press expander SET button.
        3. Press organ general piston to which expander preset is to be set.

        Note: on MDS organs with Console Controller ™ the program change mode must be set to Preset P-Change. Consult your organ owner’s manual for details.

        I think your missing link is the Console Controller ™ is not in "Preset P-Change" mode.

        Comment


        • #5
          Early MDS-25's did not include the console controller. It may not be possible to do this based on presence/absence of a console controller.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by toodles View Post
            Early MDS-25's did not include the console controller. It may not be possible to do this based on presence/absence of a console controller.
            Toodles, that is true. Allen instructions indicate this will work only on models with a console controller.

            Comment


            • #7
              Even if you have a console controller (as our MDS-65 has at church), the ability to set presets 11 - 60 on the Ensemble (or Expander II) to a general piston did not occur until the Renaissance series. With MDS organs, you have to keep re-using the same presets 1 - 10 with each memory level on the organ. Frustrating, but true. We have to deal with this all the time with the 3 organists that use the MDS-65.

              Comment


              • #8
                I know this thread is a few months old, but the expander II can be set to change with the memory levels. The MDS 51s at my church functioned perfectly this way until the capture battery had to be replaced a few months ago. I have played around with the settings and checked everything I can think of, but I cannot get it to work that way again....it is quite frustrating!
                Bryan
                =÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=
                Magnus Europa, 4 manuals, 112 stops - church sanctuary
                Hauptwerk 3 manual, converted from Rodgers 330 - home
                Rodgers Allegiant 677- church chapel

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bryan,

                  I hope someone will chime in and give the definitive word on this. I was out of the loop in the Allen organization during the MDS era and don't have access to any Expanders other than my own, which is one of the old original boxes. Interesting that you were able to do this and cannot do it now. Perhaps one of the settings in the console controller had been modified and it got messed up when the battery was replaced. The battery on the MN board holds capture settings, but it also holds all the settings in the CC menu.

                  BTW, have you done the "full reset" of the CC system since you replaced the battery? Settings sometimes become scrambled when the battery is replaced, and the reset will make things right again. I think you know how to do that, but if you don't let me know.
                  John
                  ----------
                  *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                    Bryan,

                    I hope someone will chime in and give the definitive word on this. I was out of the loop in the Allen organization during the MDS era and don't have access to any Expanders other than my own, which is one of the old original boxes. Interesting that you were able to do this and cannot do it now. Perhaps one of the settings in the console controller had been modified and it got messed up when the battery was replaced. The battery on the MN board holds capture settings, but it also holds all the settings in the CC menu.

                    BTW, have you done the "full reset" of the CC system since you replaced the battery? Settings sometimes become scrambled when the battery is replaced, and the reset will make things right again. I think you know how to do that, but if you don't let me know.
                    I have sent a request to one of my Allen customers asking for a copy of the instructions I prepared about 10 years ago. When I receive it, I will post the instructions. BTW, this will only work with software Revision 22 and higher and Renaissance. When you boot the organ, Revision 22 will appear in the console controller window if it is installed. Allen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      John, I did the full reset right after installing the new battery. I even talked with the area dealer at length about it, and we just can't seem to figure it out!
                      Allen, that would be great! I do have version 22 installed.

                      Bryan
                      Bryan
                      =÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=
                      Magnus Europa, 4 manuals, 112 stops - church sanctuary
                      Hauptwerk 3 manual, converted from Rodgers 330 - home
                      Rodgers Allegiant 677- church chapel

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bbierbaum View Post
                        John, I did the full reset right after installing the new battery. I even talked with the area dealer at length about it, and we just can't seem to figure it out!
                        Allen, that would be great! I do have version 22 installed.

                        Bryan
                        Bryan, my customer emailed today and he will get me a copy on Monday, June 15. I will post it ASAP when I receive it. Allen

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Moller Artiste View Post
                          Bryan, my customer emailed today and he will get me a copy on Monday, June 15. I will post it ASAP when I receive it. Allen
                          My customer was not able to produce all the documents with instructions for programming Expander presets to the console presets. I went to the Allen Organ site and clicked the tab Customer Support -- MIDI Manuals.

                          Here is the link to the page: http://www.allenorgan.com/www/support/midimanuals.html

                          A new window will appear: from the column titled MIDI Products select item two -- Console Controller (TM) and MIDI Guide Ver. 22. Go to numbered page 17 -- #2 Selecting Program Change Modes . . ..

                          The console must be running MDS Version 22, or Renaissance models with console controller for this to work. After powering on the console, immediately look at the console controller display. If the console is MDS Version 22, it will display momentarily in the window. Skip this verification step if you have a Renaissance console controller model. It is not necessary.


                          Attached are three files:

                          EXPANDER - CONSOLE PRESETS is a chart indicating what Expander presets are assigned to console General pistons. This will help when you are following the instructions starting on page 17 referenced above.

                          VERSION 22 is instructions for programming the Expander AFTER you have set up the preset assignments in the console controller.

                          CONSOLE CONTROLLER RECORDING INSTRUCTIONS is a document I prepared to help customers navigate through the Allen Performance Recorder located at the console controller.

                          I hope this information helps. Please let me know if you need assistance or additional information. I will try to help based on what I have retained in MY memory! Allen
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello Everyone! I have finally had time to play around with this, and am pleased to say it was a success!
                            Thanks to Allen for sending some instructions that helped tremendously.

                            I will post the instructions here, along with some photos of the console controller to help.
                            First, make sure you are in memory level 1. Then using "set" and "R" advance to the screen shown in the first photo below.
                            Make sure the Program Change is set to "User" and the Display is set to "Numbers."
                            Then advance to the next screen shown in the second photo below.
                            Once here, press one of the general pistons. I used Gen 3 here as an example. Once you push it, you should see something on the screen like what is seen in the third photo.
                            After you push a piston, you can use the left and right arrows to change the banks, and the up and down arrows to change the "P" settings. Regardless of what numbers are shown in the photos below, all banks should be the same. Bank 0 is standard to use for this. Somehow, as you can see from the pictures, mine had gotten all messed up.
                            You will want to go through every general piston, and make sure they all are in Bank 0, and that each "P" corresponds to the piston. While in memory 1, when you press Gen 3, it should show a 3 next to the "P" and Gen 4 would have a 4 next to the "P" and so on, all the way through number 10 (if you have that many).
                            Then check the divisional pistons. They should work the same way. Swell 1 should show Bank 0 and P1 and so on.
                            Now go back to the main screen by using "Set" and "Cancel."
                            Change to memory level 2, and advance to the screen in the second photo again.
                            This time when pressing a general piston 1, it should show an 11 next to the "P." General 2 should show 12 and so on.
                            Now this is where I had to make a decision about the divisional pistons. They should move up sequentially from the previous memory level. For example, Swell 1 should show a 7 next to the "P" and Swell 2 an 8. IT WILL NOT WORK TO START WITH SWELL 11 NEXT TO THE "P." Actually, it will work for the first couple of memory levels, but after that it stops working! I learned that the hard way!
                            Once you have programmed all generals and divisionals, you will want to continue accordingly through the rest of your memory levels.
                            Allen provided some useful links above to help with remembering what numbers go next to the "P" for all of the levels, but remember to just keep going sequentially for the divisionals.
                            Also, Allen's links above show exactly how to set the MIDI voices to the pistons, so I will not go into that here.

                            I hope this will help anyone else in the future with this problem!

                            Attached Files
                            Bryan
                            =÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=
                            Magnus Europa, 4 manuals, 112 stops - church sanctuary
                            Hauptwerk 3 manual, converted from Rodgers 330 - home
                            Rodgers Allegiant 677- church chapel

                            Comment

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