Today's Organ Market

[circa1949]

Moved into it's own thread in response to this post in another thread. (Click the blue box with arrow in the quote to navigate to original discussion).

However, a quick search on EBAY turned up just what I needed -- a 2160, though the seller didn't clearly identify it as such. The posted pics appeared to be a 2160, but I had to be sure before bidding.

The seller was none other than "cornetto167robert"

-Admin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Since I've been one of his most prominent critics, I might as well consider this an invitation to reply.

I've never said he doesn't have a right to pursue a living any way he sees fit. I have said his listing practices are unethical and stand by that. According to basic rules of logic and, in a properly regulated market, business as well, you can't list something on ebay that is 3000 miles away when you cannot be absolutely sure...without an ability to look into the future...that it will be safely carried to your location. But if you look at his recent ebay listings (almost never sales - on classical organs at least) you can see the organs are literally piling up in his home. Two inches from cheek to cheek...barely enough room to pull the thing out from the wall! He was willing to sell that organ to you for whatever reduced price you didn't disclose because - oh jeez guess what - attempting to sell them for an extortionate price on ebay wasn't working. In spite of having orders of magnitude more visibility than any other potential sales outlet. Why extortionate? Because his prices are nowhere near what the organs have actually gone for in open, non-reserve auctions.

If I thought there were scads of organ students out there, being prevented from pursuing this noble interest, due to his tinkering with the market, I suppose I'd be worried. But I'm not. There is no market. I hadn't looked at the AGO website online classified in ages...perhaps since I shopped for my 2005 MADC organ, which I've now sold. Guess what I found? A serious organ student at JHU Peabody selling a recent model Allen practice instrument. I don't personally know many paid church organists, but the ones I do know do not have home practice instruments and have no interest in having them. An organ I shopped for in 2005 in the DC area was from a fairly prominent local organist who had found it not as useful to have as he thought. In fact, I strongly suspect that a plurality of the people interested in owning a used Allen or Rodgers organ are either here already, or have lurked this forum at some point. From the paucity of ebay bidders, you can tell it's a very small group of people.

So, RobahWarren's (his original ebay ID) effort to "control" this microscopic market have been absolutely laughable. He's the last of a group of people who have been trying to make money flipping organs since I started following the market in the early 2000s. Feel free to find my other posts where I've humorously chronicled some of these "fallen flags" of organ flipping. Sometimes, when you are the last of something, you manage to eek out a living with it. There's probably someone out there who's the last person on Earth who can...oh I dunno I'm trying to think of something magnificently rarified...use a microscope to repair a MOS CPU chip found in a 1960s mainframe. And some third world countries or whatnot, send him parts to keep ancient mainframes running. Sorry folks, classical church music is so obviously headed to that level of obscurity it's not even funny. I've never attended an organ recital or dedication concert where the average age isn't over 50, usually well over 50. The exceptions are incredibly few and far between. The National Cathedral July 4th concert, for example...might just average to a little below 50. The recent Longwood gardens singalong concert I went to played by Peter Richard Conte, was 97% senior citizens. Families there to see the gaudy Christmas decorations stayed out. Gaudy Christmas decorations are WAY more hip than organ music. Classical music, generally, is in a slow death spiral, though it will take longer to unwind.

So, Robah seems a bit like an imperious steward, rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to make sure the third class passengers couldn't possibly catch a glimpse of the first class ones. After the iceberg has struck.

EDIT: one more thing. I bet if you could somehow know the rare category of "people under 40, making classical organ music primarily at home and not at a church", 75%+ of them would be using Hauptwerk on a console that is not a recent mainstream used digital organ. I haven't been there in a while either, but the Hauptwerk forums seemed at least as active as these, and that market as we know is still mainly home-focused. Again it just underscores what anachronistic dinosaurs these organs are, in a home context.

[ArthurCambronne]

I bet if you could somehow know the rare category of "people under 40, making classical organ music primarily at home and not at a church", 75%+ of them would be using Hauptwerk on a console that is not a recent mainstream used digital organ. I haven't been there in a while either, but the Hauptwerk forums seemed at least as active as these, and that market as we know is still mainly home-focused.

I bet you are correct. My ultimate plan is to build a Hauptwerk System, although I will probably go through a console or two on the way to saving up for the system I want. I just turned 35.

Though I also make music at Church, I make a lot more at home, and I plan on making mostly classical music.

PS. I'm convinced that there are more of us (classical musicians under 40 who love and play the organ) than many people think. In my small company of 25 I work with another guy my same age, and though he is primarily a pianist, he also plays the organ and is building (guess what?) a Hauptwerk set up. I helped him source an AGO pedal board and he is off and running. Actually he introduced me to Hauptwerk before I found the Forum. I just happen to find the pedal board for him.

I have another co-worker who is just over 40 and is a pianist, and he is interested in the organ, but does not play it. I don't know if he ever plans to, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Another friend of mine (under 30) plays piano, and once I showed him my home organ, he was all about it. I think he will definitely have one in the next couple years (if for no other reason than because I will give him my Conn when I upgrade).

Now two years ago I did not know two of these other three people (because I had a different employer), and i only started hanging out with the third a few months ago. And I guess my point is that the organ seems strong within my small group of under or near 40 acquaintances. I don't know any 4 adults that play the french horn (regularly) for instance. I guess I can see that organ music is shrinking because of the decline of congregation size in certain denominations that favor organ music, but I think the organ will survive. It is just too cool an instrument and too fun to play to die out completely. The organ player pool will contract and expand (likely in a downward trend) until it sort of plateaus out at some point in the future.

Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread for my rant. To get back on topic, I think the organ market is just an indicator of an extended contraction, not a death spiral. But then again, what do I know? It has been a contracting market as long as I have been on the earth. I just hope to be part of the new trend.B-)

[jbird604]

I figured you'd have a response, circa! Of course your're not the only forum member who has spoken disapprovingly of organ-flipping. But you know, it just worked out perfectly for me in this case, and I don't feel the least bit ripped-off. Indeed I feel fortunate to have found just what I was looking for at about 1/10 the price of a new one. I've tried the virtual organ thing, and I'd much rather play the organ than tinker with a computer, so I'm probably going to stick with hardware organs.

Getting this organ into my home SHOULD encourage me to practice more and get more out of my practicing, since it will have some features found on the MDS at church that I've not had at home before. I wanted an organ more like my church organ, not less like it. That makes me just the type of customer he is looking for.

I understand your cynicism about the future of classical music, organ music in particular, and there is a lot of evidence to back you up. But oddly enough, right here in The Natural State, we are absolutely overwhelmed with demands for organ service in our client churches. My associate and I spend four days nearly every week traveling around the state keeping Allen, Rodgers, and other nice church organs playing, and there are a lot of churches where the organ is used in every service and is greatly missed when it is down.

Perhaps it's too early to see a trend, and yes, church attendance is low and still declining, but there are at least some small signs that the contemporary worship movement is running out of steam and a need for some traditional music is becoming apparent. Lots of internet articles come across my facebook feed about folks who are leaving the praise-band "movement," but then I have a lot of friends who are organists and choir directors, so they would naturally be posting this type of thing. Still, where there's smoke . . .

Even though I don't see many mega-contemporary churches going away any time soon, I do have reason to hope that fewer and fewer traditional churches will be taken in by the argument that in order to "grow" you have to switch to a praise band. With numerous examples of that path leading to failure, smart church leaders should be less likely to lead a congregation down that path.

My own little church, a smallish suburban Disciples congregation, flirted with the contemporary thing in the past and eventually (several years before my time here) decided to have two services. Hymns/choir/organ at 9 and guitars/drums/praiseteam at 11. Every Sunday morning our folks, who are not all old people by a long shot, vote overwhelmingly for TRADITIONAL worship, with about three times as many attending the Hymn service as the Band service, even though they have to get up early to be there! Nearly all the younger people attend at 9, including some college kids who sing faithfully in the choir!

Perhaps the heyday of the electronic simulated-pipe organ is past, and there will never be the vast market there was 30 or 40 years ago, but those of us who hold out hope, who continue to offer traditional music every Sunday, who try to keep our skills sharp, will find ourselves in a very good place when some prominent American church leader comes out publicly in favor of a return to traditional music and worship. And folks like our friend in Florida (and me, too, as I have quite a stash of old organs) will be set up to help smaller churches get an organ.

Anyway, I appreciate your contribution. My plan for this thread is to post more info about my new organ and the setup, as well as how my transaction works out. Stay tuned!

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and I don't mind a bit seeing the "hijacks" on the thread. The more the merrier! In fact, I expected to get a lot of comments about the used organ market and the future of the organ once I brought this up. Thanks, guys!

- - - Updated - - -

Good call, Admin, on starting a new thread with these. We'll continue our discussion of the used organ market here, and I'll use the original thread to report on my home organ project.

So carry on, guys. I'm looking forward to more comments.

[myorgan]

Of course your're not the only forum member who has spoken disapprovingly of organ-flipping. But you know, it just worked out perfectly for me in this case, and I don't feel the least bit ripped-off. Indeed I feel fortunate to have found just what I was looking for at about 1/10 the price of a new one.

John,

I'm surprised at you!!! Dealing with the Devil that way. I don't know how many times our Florida "friend" (aka Pomodoro something on eBay) has snatched an organ out from under me I could have reasonably have afforded and/or placed, given time. Not only that, but his eBay listings embolden others (I've noticed) to do the same in Michigan, Illinois, and other locales with the same out-of-the-common person's price range.

Consequently, only organizations, businesses, or rich people can afford the prices he commands for instruments he lists. Students or poorer people like me can't even afford to get in the game. My wife lost her job teaching music over a year ago in school budget cuts, so my earnings from my 3-4 jobs and our limited savings are it.

What do I do with the organs I get? I use them for practice, performance, and placement:

• Allen MOS-2 505B--I used it with the Symphony for one concert before I placed it in the second church where I play every Sunday. They had nothing (out-of-tune piano) and no one before I came. She had died.
• Allen ADC-6000--Maintained and repaired before being given to the Symphony for its use.
• Allen ADC-4300DKC--Used for the Symphony when the ADC-6000 was indisposed for a card repair, and for performing in various venues. Now placed in the first church where I play every Sunday. They also had no one and no organ before I came.
• Allen ADC-5400--Purchased less than a year ago, and used to practice at home during the summer, as well as for performing in various venues.

Yes, I know I'm a bottom feeder in the organ market, but I'd like to think I'm doing it honorably and for the right reasons. Do I resent people like the fellow in Florida? Yes, absolutely. I would love to be able to do more for folks/churches in the field of organ, but I'll be physically unable, or pushing up daisies before I can help in others in the way I'd like. It's enough to make me want to curl up and die already.

Every Sunday morning our folks, who are not all old people by a long shot, vote overwhelmingly for TRADITIONAL worship, with about three times as many attending the Hymn service as the Band service, even though they have to get up early to be there! Nearly all the younger people attend at 9, including some college kids who sing faithfully in the choir!

There are three (maybe more) reasons why people choose Traditional worship over Contemporary:

• Sanctification--This word is used in the Bible to refer those who are "set apart" from the world. Many people attend church because they want something different from what the world offers--not just more of the same.
• Participatory--When people attend church, it is more engaging if they have an opportunity to participate in worship, rather than it being a spectator sport.
• Intellectually Stimulating--People like church to engage the intellect rather than just be more of the same thing the world offers. Many churches don't realize they have the opportunity to create a different, worshipful, engaging, intellectual experience that expands the intellect rather than dulling it. That is not offered elsewhere in the world outside church. Instead, many churches attempt to recreate the world outside the church and bring it in.

When one of my churches recently had a guitarist attempt to introduce his brand of contemporary music for a period of about 6 months, it struck me how he was consistently the only one singing with a couple of friends in the congregation. The rest were just standing there watching the performance because no attempt was made to teach them the music. When he happened upon a piece they knew, they'd sing. He gave up just a couple of weeks ago after creating considerable consternation--I think Satriani for Christmas was what did it.

Sorry, sermon over. My 2 cents worth.

Michael

[don60]

Michael, yours is a very clear and eloquent defense of the intrinsic value of tradional worship supported by traditional organ music. I was touching on the same issues that you raise in my Soapbox rant about "Organist" in Love with Orchestral Stops. My chief complaint with the fellow that I described there was his non-standard, even quirky overuse of orchestral sounds--particularly the strings. His choice of registrations leads to two problems that relate closely to what you are saying:

1) He is creating a soundtrack for a movie (entertainment) rather than a foundation for congregational singing and mediation.

2) He is calling excessive attention to himself as a performer and drawing attention away from the central experience of the service.

Since these two problems come from a mindset rather than the presence or absence of specific musical abilities, I was pessimistic on the other thread about the benefit of giving him more organ instruction. His values and attitudes are fixed at this point barring a lightning-bolt change of heart. The rather self important pastor-enabler who hired him is not helping matters, either.

[Arden]

I don't know how relevant it it, but my the Presbeterian church my ex and her family attend in a small community in the edge of what is now considered to be Northern Virgina (still mostly family farms) recently had a new organ installed via a donation by a church member. I don't know much about it, execept that it was new and very expensive. They are very conservative, mixed ages, having 2 services every Sunday. There was a dedication a few months ago but I did not attend so I don't know about the details. I was quite surprised by this small congregation installing a new organ becasue while there are many new industries in the area, the majority of people in the area are struggling to get by. Gave me hope that organs in churches will continue to survive.

Arden

[myorgan]

In my prior post, I neglected to mention that while accompanying a youth ensemble, one of the violinists (about 13 years old) came over to me and disclosed he was taking organ lessons. It turns out, he lives over 1 hour from the church where he takes lessons. I don't want to interfere because he is the student of another teacher (who is pipe organ only), but I'd love to be able to find an instrument for him to practice on in his home to encourage him. I just wish I could have taken lessons at his age (I was almost 19 before my first organ lesson).

In my opinion, he's part of the future of the organ market. Couple that with churches who cannot afford to maintain pipe organs, symphonies, and others who cannot afford a pipe organ; and there is probably a limited future market for the organ. Hauptwerk may impinge on the traditional organ market somewhat, but because of the specialized knowledge to design, run, and set up an Hauptwerk system, I don't see them readily replacing an organ that operates traditionally with a flick of a switch.

Michael

[jbird604]

Nice discussion. We can only hope that SOMEONE in church leadership is listening. Sad to say, the Baptist denomination that I spent most of life in until 3 or 4 years ago (SBC--largest protestant body in the US), for the most part continues down the path to destruction, in more than one way. Not only destructively mired in right-wing politics, but embracing contemporary worship without reservation, abandoning the honored hymnody and choir-led music that graced virtually every SBC congregation back in the days when it was truly growing and prospering.

Every time the SBC meets, and every time our state Baptist convention meets, and at every denominational rally or conference or other big gathering, whether the attendees are young or old, the program will be highlighted by some "star" of the contemporary music scene leading "worship." It's usually a 30-something young guy with the obligatory holes in his bluejeans, playing a guitar, backed up by a four-piece band, singing with tremendous enthusiasm and passion bordering on tears about his great love for JEE-ZUS.

When will someone notice that this emperor is wearing no clothes?

MICHAEL: You are certainly not a bottom-feeder in the organ world! You are a wise and thoughtful collector of the finest organs! It's tough that organ-flippers (of which there are apparently more than one around) have beaten you to more than one good organ, but I sure wouldn't want you to stop trying. In fact, with the growing glut of orphaned organs already on ebay, I predict that fewer of them will get snapped up by these guys. The warehousers of these instruments must have a limit to the number they can afford to hold onto at one time!

I just have to be appreciative of Mr. Cornetto167Robert for having exactly what I wanted when I wanted it, and for offering it to me at a price that seriously isn't that much more than it would have cost me to go foraging for this organ. Not everyone will have the same experience, but it sure worked for me this time!

[myorgan]

Sad to say, the Baptist denomination that I spent most of life in until 3 or 4 years ago (SBC--largest protestant body in the US), for the most part continues down the path to destruction, in more than one way.

Pop quiz! Does anyone know the Northernmost SBC church in the continental United States?

Believe it or not, it's in Caribou, Maine. I know someone who helped build the church back in the 1950s to help accommodate the servicemen at Loring Air Force Base on the Canadian border. They started a Korean church as well, but I'm not sure if either is extant or still functioning since Loring closed back in the 1990s.

Oddly enough, they purchased a used classical Baldwin organ (tubes) from the 1950s that was being offered for only $200 at the local music store in the 1970s. The organ was along the lines of this one: http://www.netinstruments.com/organs...mage/41261.jpg. I'm not sure whatever happened to it.

In fact, with the growing glut of orphaned organs already on ebay, I predict that fewer of them will get snapped up by these guys. The warehousers of these instruments must have a limit to the number they can afford to hold onto at one time!

I can only hope that time comes soon, for my sake, because I don't have many organ-playing years left before I succumb to old age and prior injuries. I've already outlived the age I thought I'd end up in a wheelchair. The guys here have been great in keeping eyes out for me for organs, though. Thank you so much, guys (& gals)!

Michael

[jbird604]

Michael,

that's an interesting web site you linked to above. I'd not seen it before. I see some nice organs there, and I believe I spot a rather familiar seller among the crowd too.

The young man you mention needs a good starter organ. He'd be served well by a self-contained MOS organ, which might be found for very little money. Not the greatest sound, but reliable, and he could hear authentic individual stops, a good aid in ear training. If he catches the fever that we all have, he'd be wanting something bigger and better in a few years, but a MOS would get him through a few years' lessons. I notice that self-contained MOS organs are offered in the $1500 range on ebay, perhaps a sign that there are too many of them for sale right now. You can sometimes pick one up for free if you are in the right place at the right time, of course.

As far as the future of organists and good music, I think there ARE some encouraging signs. There are several young organists in my own area who will be carrying the torch long after my generation is gone. Just a couple years ago a promising young man graduated from high school here and went on to a prestigious conservatory. I know at least a half dozen organists in their 30's who are doing well and who are in demand for their services. All is not lost.

Arden mentioned the small Presbyterian church that recently installed a nice new organ. It doesn't happen every month, but we see a new organ going into a church several times a year. And we install a good used Allen or Rodgers somewhere several times a year if we're lucky. As long as the organ doesn't completely disappear there is hope!

[myorgan]

As far as the future of organists and good music, I think there ARE some encouraging signs. There are several young organists in my own area who will be carrying the torch long after my generation is gone. Just a couple years ago a promising young man graduated from high school here and went on to a prestigious conservatory. I know at least a half dozen organists in their 30's who are doing well and who are in demand for their services. All is not lost.

[snip]

As long as the organ doesn't completely disappear there is hope!

John,

I hearken to the day I took one of my organs to the local juvenile prison and played for them. They swarmed the instrument to get a chance to play and hear it. I wonder if we're not experiencing the effects of market saturation? Now that the organ is heard less and less, there is a rarity/novelty value in the sound that young people are beginning to value again. I hope it's a sign of things to come. I still remember my first organ concert as a teen, and thinking perhaps it was something I could do.

Michael

[ArthurCambronne]

I hearken to the day I took one of my organs to the local juvenile prison and played for them. They swarmed the instrument to get a chance to play and hear it. I wonder if we're not experiencing the effects of market saturation? Now that the organ is heard less and less, there is a rarity/novelty value in the sound that young people are beginning to value again. I hope it's a sign of things to come. I still remember my first organ concert as a teen, and thinking perhaps it was something I could do.

I think this is in line with my prediction about some future expansion of the Organ world/market. An instrument as historically important as the organ cannot be utterly disappeared, and as such will surely see a resurgence at some point. I think the question is: Have we already seen the bottom of the market in terms of organ value and popularity, or will it fall further before some period of recovery?

I think you are right on about the novelty of it. I believe this is one effect of having multiple generations that did not grow attending church regularly. They are unfamiliar with the organ, and because of that they are awed and inspired when in close proximity. At least that is my take. . .

[circa1949]

"An instrument as historically important as the organ cannot be utterly disappeared, and as such will surely see a resurgence at some point."

Let me guess, like the resurgence of the lute and harpsichord?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm just being realistic. I don't want our culture to become the "Idiocracy" but it's happening. It was interesting what you said about having coworkers who were into the organ. The northeastern US is one of the last places that statistical anomaly would be that, and not a statistical impossibility. If, for example, you look at the bios of participants in any form of classical music...though I'm thinking of the piano but it could be anything...a lot of them will come from the northeast. What I specifically remember was somehow stumbling on the webpages of a youth piano competition at Furman - respectable, regionally-known southern university in SC - and being struck that almost all of the finalist were from the DC to Boston corridor.

If you really wanted to study this scientifically, what you should look for is the ratio of "new blood" in classical church music. If you go the pages of Juilliard, Oberlin, whatever, you see there are still plenty of young serious organists. I bet 90% of them grew up in churches with traditional music programs...which...we are know are diminishing in #...rapidly in some parts of the country.

[jbird604]

But sometimes a person will just catch the organ bug without any real exposure. I'm a case in point, having grown up in a tiny country Baptist church, singing Stamps-Baxter gospel music out of paperback songbooks before our church got some Broadman Hymnals when I was about 10 or 11. Even when we got real hymnals, we continued to sing more or less the same old songs in the same style. We had nothing but an old upright piano in the church and the only organs I ever saw or heard were Hammond organs in the bigger churches in town. But the first time I ever heard a pipe organ it reached out and grabbed me and wouldn't let me go! I knew in an instant this was my instrument.

Of course, I had to hear one before I got hooked, and some kids get fully grown without ever hearing one. I was about 15, so still musically malleable, I suppose. And our culture is much the poorer because fewer kids study music of any kind, fewer still take piano lessons.

I do think that a huge percentage of kids being raised going to contemporary worship, never hearing an organ, will stop going to church when they get out of high school. This is a sad fact born out in many studies by many denominations, and there doesn't seem to be any cure for it offered by the evangelical denominations who tend toward contemporary worship. Anecdotally, I know a few young people in their 20's, 30's, 40's who grew up in Baptist churches, who dropped out of church once out of their parents' homes, and have returned to church in some very traditional settings, primarily Episcopal and RC. Perhaps there really is a soul-hunger for authentic worship, for the majesty and mystery of traditional worship with organ and choir and hymn, and some people will seek out such worship given the opportunity.

And yes, maybe it's true that the DC to Boston corridor is where a lot of budding classical musicians come from. But hey, about one of six Americans lives in that little region, so one would expect to find a good many kids from that area in any gathering of young musicians. But we have them here too, in the South. As I've said, I personally know right here in central Arkansas several young organists in their teens to 30's who are extraordinarily talented. Organ playing is not dead, not yet anyway.

[ArthurCambronne]

Let me guess, like the resurgence of the lute and harpsichord?

Well, for one thing, by historic I did not mean simply 'old'. I was also referring to the importance, wide-spread proliferation, and cultural provenance of the instrument (as a typology).

And the key difference here is that Lutes and Harpsichords are not permanently installed in the largest and most affluent churches in the western world. And at least with the Harpsichord, the organ both predates it and has had many times the amount of music written for it.

And for that matter, I am not sure I buy that the lute has completely died out. There is a fair argument to be made that it was simply a predecessor of all other plucked hand-held stringed instruments with hollow bodies. With this line of reasoning, the modern guitar could be considered a 'descendant' of the first lute, and the guitar is probably one of the most popular and best recognized instruments on the planet. This from an instrument that dates to the bronze age!



And just for the record, I did not mean to exclude any particular organ from the potential future and well expanded organ market/world that I envision. In fact, I think there are a great deal of instruments that are direct descendants of the historic (pipe) organ, and which should be considered in this discussion.

I remember a thread where Admin had a good definition for the organ. . . It centered around the concept of polyphonic sound generation. Many modern keyboard synthesizers can do this, as well as most samplers (and samplers may at this point be generating more of the sound in most modern pop songs than actual instruments). I have heard some on this site refer to the Organ as the first synthesizer, so I tend to think they are strongly related.

Back when I was just a humble keyboard player in my high school rock band, I use to fantasize about a set up like this one:



Looks an awful lot like an organ to me . . .