Organ Rodgers MS-356

[JRCA]

Hello,

Our installer Rodgers, made a different connection of the common of FR1.7 speakers.

The Speakers were installed by division, not respecting the Stereo. Below a picture to better understand

This format is valid? Or we have a bad installation?

I am Brazilian and here there is no installer rodgers so qualification.

Our Rodgers is the Masterpiece Signature 356

[arie v]

Hi,

Looks like someone at least knew how to connect speakers to the amplifiers.

Seriously, this plan shows ignorance. Having the 2 divisional speakers side by side, defeats the stereo effect.

You should be able to tell the way the Great speaks vs the Swell and Choir, as the Great does have separation.

If as you say there are no so-called qualified installers in Brazil, likely there was no one around to voice it either.

Not likely the best organ install on the planet.

AV

[searchinferu]

Hey JRCA

What an awesome sanctuary! Can't believe those speakers were meant to serve an area that big. But, I don't know anything about Rodgers. Still it looks like there is room for improvement.

By the way, when I clicked on the photos to expand them, other photos appeared, maybe added by whatever site you are using for your internet connection? Try clicking on your photos and see if you get the same...Bill

[myorgan]

Seriously, this plan shows ignorance. Having the 2 divisional speakers side by side, defeats the stereo effect.

Arie,

I know in certain Allen installations, channels from the same division need to be near each other in order to get the Celeste effect. OTOH, the photo demonstrates some knowledge. I know many pipe organs that have the Great pipes in the center with Swell and Choir on opposite sides. That's not so unusual--perhaps for Rodgers, but not in reality. I'm not sure I'd have separated the Great speakers by such a distance, but depending on the design of the organ, it could be do-able.

How realistic is Stereo in that situation? I'm sure the sound will be blended fairly well before it reaches the congregation. Of course, I'm not a tech, nor a Rodgers installer, but the installation looks like it could work.

Michael

[jbird604]

Not sure just how much the old guidelines for PDI and Masterpiece organs apply to the current generation, but back then Rodgers recommended separating the Left and Right speaker in each pair by four to eight feet, depending on the size of the room. But I never found that to be absolutely essential, and personally I couldn't hear much of a "stereo" effect either, though the two parts of celeste stop would be in opposing speakers, and in some organs the chimes might be divided on a C-C# scheme.

Many of the Rodgers installs I've helped with were done more or less like this, with swell on one side, choir on the other, and the great and pedal speakers in both. So this might not be a bad setup. As I said, I don't know if Rodgers even specifies a distance between speakers any more. Things are somewhat different these days with the latest technology.

That does look like a large church for such a small set of speakers. There are of course some subs somewhere, but still, that looks undersized. On the other hand, if the acoustic setting is agreeable, it may sound quite wonderful. I do hope the console is somewhere close to the speakers.

Has anyone worked on an installation with this latest Rodgers technology? I have only seen one at the dealers, and it sounded great, but I don't know how they go about locating the speakers.

[arie v]

John,

According to Rodgers, with their PDI organs, and subsequent Trillium and Masterpiece instruments, their view of stereo was a sample for the left side and another for the right side. So when a note was played 2 digital oscillators turned on, and they in turn caused their respective tones to play in the left speaker or right speaker. Since the maximum length of a pipe chest is somewhere between 8' and 10', it makes sense to try and create a 3-dimensional sound field with the speakers approx 8' to 10' apart. I understand that in the Rodgers software stop and note outputs can be changed, but generally dealers stuck with factory defaults, so rarely do you come across stops on those organs where there is a hard C-C# split. Was usually 50-50, 60-40, 70-30 kind of loading.

Now what happens when you reduce the distance, you essentially are collapsing the sound field. Instead you end up with a beaming of focused kind of sound - which makes the organ sound like - well electronic.

Now, while there are advantages to the stereo concept, the downside is you are in the end tying up 2 channels, which essentially have the same or similar tonal output. It may sound good on 1 or 2 stops, but the more stops that are added, the more the ensemble gets compressed sounding, the overall sound becoming less distinctive and more mushy.

Rodgers has quietly dropped the "stereo" claim, and have gone the route of other manufacturers - panning the sample from left to right, C-C# split, and whatever other windchest layouts they have designed.

They now claim to sample using (I think) 6 microphones to record the pipes, and process them in a proprietary manner. Is said to more fully capture the pipe sound. Those who I have talked, don't hear much or any improvement over previous generation Rodgers organs. I guess it is for the customer to decide if it is better.

AV

[jbird604]

Hmmm.... So I guess the "stereo sampling" thing didn't work out so well after all! Of course, we should have known it was more or less an advertising slogan without real meaning for the end result. As you say, a single note of a single stop ties up both available channels in a given division, and that seems like a waste of resources to me. Perhaps the windchest layout idea will work better.

The install in the photos above may in fact be in line with the current instructions from Rodgers, if they have abandoned the stereo idea. I know that ever since Allen started the C-C# thing they've told us to keep the two speakers of a pair close together to preserve the integrity of each stop, so the adjacent notes in a chromatic scale don't seem to bounce back and forth like a pingpong ball. It is quite difficult to get good note to note matching if the speakers are not close together.

What Rodgers should do now is move past their standard 8-channel concept and start providing four channels per division in all models. That would be an improvement that anyone could hear.

[JRCA]

Hi,

Our installer to perform the installation, said it received a technical bulletin Rodgers stating that it could be done as well.

As I saw that this forum has people with a much larger experience, I asked the question so that they could help us and create a debate on the best way to install the speakers Rodgers.

I no have to talk about the sound of the organ, below a link to a video on youtube with the Italian organist Simone Stella, in our Church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZT6pb1VjVQ

Also put the pictures of where they are located the speakers SW7.5 for better understanding.





Do you think we should redo this installation? the opinion of you is of great importance to us.

A Brazilian hug.

[jbird604]

JRCA,

The organ sounds nice in the video. If it sounds good in person, and performs well in the church services, then the installation is good. I am happy to know that your installer had instructions from Rodgers about the speaker placement.

Placing the subwoofers down on the floor was a good thing to do. I'm sure they work better in that location than they would have up high with the other speakers.

There is no need to re-do the installation if it sounds good to you and serves the church well. If you find that it is inadequate or weak, you might look into doubling up the amps and speakers.

[myorgan]

John,

The video did sound good--even on my MBA laptop. My only question is: When the speakers are so high above the organist's head, is it possible the organist is hearing only reflected vs. direct sound? Is that a good thing, bad thing, or neutral?

Again, the YouTube video sounded nice and reverberant, so it sounds like the installation was a success. The beginning made me wonder if there wasn't enough clarity, but later in the video, my question was answered, and everything appears tonally balanced.

Michael

[jbird604]

I was watching the organist's fingers to see if there was an appreciable delay. Seemed to be a rather prompt response, though one can't be sure when watching a youtube video. The speakers are rather distant from the console and way up high, but whether or not that is a problem depends on how the organist feels about it. It looked to me like the organist was feeling quite confident and not having any trouble with the predominating reflected sound.

[JRCA]

John, Michael!

I am profoundly grateful for your comments, your help is very valuable to us.

In fact we do not feel delays by the position of the speakers, I will put down another video, this time near recorded for better viewing.

I apologize for the quality of the audio, the camcorder not favored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y8u7RDfteA

I apologize to the moderators for offtopic, for those who have the curiosity to know our temple from the outside, post a photo below.





Thank you very much!

[jimsmith77006]

That's a very attractive temple, far and away more distinguished than the majority of our local places of worship. Too many in my town are newish steel buildings with some stone pasted on the front. Barely distinguishable from an office building or an automobile dealership.

[jbird604]

Yes indeed! A beautiful church. You are fortunate to have a nice organ and to have such wonderful music. May God bless you and your fellow church members.