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  • Rodgers 677 problem

    Hello everyone!
    I am having trouble with a Rodgers Allegient 677. The problem only happens once every few weeks, but it has been enough times that it bothers me.
    When playing, a note on the great will begin ciphering all of the stops in the division. Could this be a problem in the keyboard array? Below is a link with a video to show some more details.

    Thanks!
    Bryan

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/z6luf5vdxu...ipher.mp4?dl=0
    Bryan
    =÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=
    Magnus Europa, 4 manuals, 112 stops - church sanctuary
    Hauptwerk 3 manual, converted from Rodgers 330 - home
    Rodgers Allegiant 677- church chapel

  • #2
    A couple questions.
    If you hold a working key down then engage the coupler or MIDI voice, does that key sound?
    Does the ciphering key have the same feel and mechanical sound as the others?
    There was a problem in early production with the keyboards. If you post the first three characters of the serial number I can check that.

    td
    Servicing electronic organs since 1969.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi,

      I bet you dollars to donuts, the problem is the key contact for that note. Will require replacing the contact strip, which is usually an octave long, or could be shorter if it is the middle octave.

      Problem tends to worsen over time, so eventually it doesn't sound at all.

      Keyboard is likely made by Fatar, so any Fatar double contact strip will work.

      AV

      Comment


      • #4
        Tucsondave, the answer is yes to both of your questions. The first three of the serial # is ZU3.

        AV, I figure it has to be something like that. I am not 100% sure if it is Fatar though....it doesn't play or feel like any other Fatar I have played, but I know they make several different styles, so then again it very well might be.

        Thanks for both of your responses!

        Bryan
        Bryan
        =÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=
        Magnus Europa, 4 manuals, 112 stops - church sanctuary
        Hauptwerk 3 manual, converted from Rodgers 330 - home
        Rodgers Allegiant 677- church chapel

        Comment


        • #5
          Your production was after they fixed the key actuator problem that caused ciphers but the symptoms still point to a contact issue.
          That can be confirmed by disconnecting the keyboard ribbon cables. This used a PK-30 keyboard which was metal and wood so that is why it doesn't feel like the "normal" Fatar plastic action.

          td
          Last edited by tucsondave; 04-26-2015, 06:10 AM.
          Servicing electronic organs since 1969.

          Comment


          • #6
            Bryan,

            I watched your video, and I believe you'll find a ruptured key contact. The reason it doesn't play on the MIDI stop you tried, is because the contact is already stuck "on" before the MIDI sound is engaged, thus not receiving a "note on" message from that key. That also explains why you can't make that key sound on a MIDI voice.

            I've changed key contacts on similar Rodgers models of that era, and I believe Arie is correct, a very ordinary Fatar rubber bubble strip is what you need. Lift the keyboards, both will pivot upward, though you may have to remove some screws underneath to get the Great to pivot up. The key contact board will be attached to the bottom with a large number of screws. Don't lose any of them!

            Once you remove the contact board, you can pull up the strip with that note in it, and you will almost surely find that the bubble is cracked or ruptured or the little black tip is detached from the rubber to some extent. To get you going temporarily, you can pull the offending tip off, then move this strip to the top or bottom octave where you are less likely to notice the missing note.

            If you haven't installed this type of key contact strip before, the tool to use to get them re-installed on the board is a toothpick.

            If you don't have a source for the contacts, give me a call or text me a picture of the contact strip. If they are what I think they are, you can order them from CE Distribution in Arizona, where they are listed in the catalog as "Korg" key contacts. Before you order though, send me a pic or post here on the forum and I'll confirm.
            John
            ----------
            *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

            Comment


            • #7
              I have opened the console and raised the keyboards, but there doesn't seem to be a way to get to the contact board from underneath. Will I have to remove individual keys and get to it from the top? I provided a picture of the bottom in the link below.

              https://www.dropbox.com/s/kdxpx7ia68...21222.jpg?dl=0
              Bryan
              =÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=
              Magnus Europa, 4 manuals, 112 stops - church sanctuary
              Hauptwerk 3 manual, converted from Rodgers 330 - home
              Rodgers Allegiant 677- church chapel

              Comment


              • #8
                You are right. No way to get to the board from the bottom! Rodgers uses more than one type of keyboard, and that is one that I haven't opened up, although I have seen a very similar keyboard on a Trillium Rodgers. I'm guessing you will have to take off the keys from the top to get to the contacts. If these are the keys I think they are, you have to unhook a small spring at the rear of each key, then pull upward on the rear of the key to release it from the plastic pivot. Then tip the key forward and move it toward you to release it from the key guide. You may have to remove white keys before the blacks will come out.

                If this is the case, you'll need to remove a whole octave of keys to get out the strip with the defective note in it. It gets easier after you've done a couple of keys! Once you have the contact strip out and verify that the rubber tip is indeed broken or dangling, you may want to remove the bottom octave of keys and then swap that strip into the middle. Pull off the offending tip before (temporarily) installing the bad strip in the bottom octave where the missing note won't be so troublesome.

                Post a pic of the contact strip and I'll try to tell you if it is the Korg type from CE Distribution.

                There's always a chance you'll find the contact isn't really defective, but that something has fallen down into it or onto the board.
                John
                ----------
                *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here's a couple photos of what John was talking about. Also check the actuator in the channel of the bad key to make sure it's still in place.
                  td

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Servicing electronic organs since 1969.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Nice photos! They make it clear to me.
                    Home organ, same as church's organ - Rodgers 940

                    Sign on my work toolbox that effectively keeps people away:

                    DANGER!!! 1,000,000 OHMS!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dave,

                      Your pics have jogged my memory. Not too long ago we were called to service a small Trillium organ, possibly an 807, and it had the keys that are in your pic, if I'm not mistaken.

                      The reason for the call was a cipher on one manual, and it turned out to be the actuator in that key. The part is plastic and it had developed a sort of downward bow that caused it to press down on the rubber bubble enough that the note would play all the time unless you physically pulled upward on the key. That might actually be Bryan's trouble, instead of a broken rubber tip.

                      I didn't have a spare part to install in the key, so I removed the faulty actuator and filed on it until I removed enough plastic to make it play normally. Not a hard thing to do at all, just had to pull out another key and use it for comparison as I filed on the bad one.

                      A question for you -- the rubber contacts look very similar to the common Korg or Kurzweil contacts that we use all the time and get from CE Distribution, though they may not be exactly the same. Do you happen to know if they are similar enough to work on a Rodgers organ? They are obviously Fatar-type contacts, but I've found Fatar contacts do vary a bit in height from one type to another.
                      John
                      ----------
                      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        John,

                        Based on his serial number the actuator problem had been solved, but....
                        I can't tell from the photos if these contacts are the same. I was looking for the cutting points between every 4th contact. "Close" might work for non-velocity voices. I don't think Eli Whitney's concept of interchangeable parts ever made it to the organ industry. :->
                        Too bad there isn't a "Cross Reference Master" for mechanical parts.


                        Dave
                        Servicing electronic organs since 1969.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I did open everything up on Tuesday (just now getting time to post) and didn't find any problem with the contact itself, so I just blew it out and cleaned it to make sure there wasn't any little spec of dirt left behind to cause the problem. Once everything was put back together, everything worked fine....of course it was an intermittent problem to begin with, so time will tell. If it happens again, I will check the actuator. Thanks for everyone's input!
                          Attached Files
                          Bryan
                          =÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=÷=
                          Magnus Europa, 4 manuals, 112 stops - church sanctuary
                          Hauptwerk 3 manual, converted from Rodgers 330 - home
                          Rodgers Allegiant 677- church chapel

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My Allegiant 677 at church works fine as long as there is humidity in the sanctuary. However, when the humidity drops, the organ is a royal pain. It's been this way for 4 years. The pedal division quits working, some pedal note will cipher, the swell goes away, the great goes away or there's a grand cipher. Once the cipher occurs, you can change pistons all day and they relight but nothing in the registration changes. Any advice?????

                            Comment

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