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  • Speaker Technology

    Having recently acquired four Allen HC-12s would like to know if the cabinet size can be reduced without diminishing the sound quality. They are 18 inches deep. A reduction to 10 or 12 inches deep would fit better in the space where they will live. The midrange and tweeters are sealed in back so it should not make a difference in their performance. There's heavy insulation to deaden the inside. The speakers are not ported so the question ---Does the 15 inch woofer need that much space to operate?

    Hope there are speakers gurus who will know the answer.

    Thanks,

    Sam
    Sam

    Allen ADC5400, 1910 Chickering QuarterGrand
    Past---Allen ADC4000, Galanti Praeludium II, Yamaha Clavinova, Hammond A102, W.W. Putnam Reed Organ

  • #2
    When it comes to professionally-designed speakers, the woofer parameters (Thiele-Small Parameters) would ideally be matched to the enclosure volume. Generally speaking, radically reducing the number of cubic feet inside the enclosure will have a very significant effect on how the speaker performs, particularly at the lower frequencies. I wouldn't do it and expect the cabinets to sound the same.
    I'm David. 'Dave' is someone else's name.

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    • #3
      Thanks David. Will put my saw away. Or, perhaps, use it on some cabinets that are in the way.

      Sam
      Sam

      Allen ADC5400, 1910 Chickering QuarterGrand
      Past---Allen ADC4000, Galanti Praeludium II, Yamaha Clavinova, Hammond A102, W.W. Putnam Reed Organ

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, don't do it. There will be a radical shift in the response of the cabinet throughout the entire operating range of the woofer.

        If you want something lower profile, something like a pair of used Walker WM1104's (which are full-range and can do okay with 16' stops in small rooms) or even Allen HC11's or HR100's (which would require a subwoofer) would be good options to look for.

        Comment


        • #5
          Knowing that increasing the volume decreases % of the rise of the resonance freq. you can make an 8" sounding bigger or a 15" sounding smaller and bad. A clear illustration of the above is the following chart about Jensen loudspeakers, pretty much The Gold Standard in the 50's:

          Click image for larger version

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          • #6
            I have the same HC12 speakers. And they are pretty big for smaller space. But cutting them down would definitely change output.

            I bought one used HR100 on eBay. These cost $550 new, plus S&H and tax. The dimensions are 14 inches wide x 25 5/8 inches high x 10 19/32 deep. They have a 12 inch woofer and a "1 inch Ferro-fluid diaphragm driver with a bi-radial horn". The response is 40 to 20KhZ. They are, IMO, far more efficient than the HC12s. I paid $245 used including shipping.

            I was warned by some to avoid the Allen HR50 because of poor sound. It has a 6 inch woofer and what I suspect is the same horn as the HR100 (and possibly the HR200). The response on the HR50 is 100 to 20KhZ. And like the HR100, efficiency is at 94 dB. I have not heard or priced these personally. Dimensions are 10 inches wide x 17 inches high x 7 3/4 inches deep.

            But I freely admit that I really like the sound of the HC12s even if they aren't all that efficient. Just know that some parts for the 12s are hard to find.

            Bach On
            Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

            Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
            Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
            We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
            Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
            I'm a Methodist organist.
            I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
            Became a Technology Specialist.
            Retired from Education after 32 years.

            Comment


            • #7
              I concur with all the above. It would greatly degrade the bass output to make the cabinets smaller.

              You might check around for some shallower speakers such as some of the Kenwood hi-fi speakers built 15 or 20 years ago for audiophile use. They are only about 12" deep, but they can put out some astounding bass. I wouldn't attempt to use them for 32' pedal stops, but in a home they ought to be perfectly OK for 16' pedal stops.

              I don't know the model number, but we have a pair of them in the shop. I've hooked them up to an organ for testing, and found them to be perfectly acceptable. I believe they have 12" woofers with foam or rubber surrounds, plus a cone midrange and a cone tweeter. No doubt they aren't as smooth and organ-perfect as HC-12s, but they might be good enough in a home setting.
              John
              ----------
              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

              Comment


              • #8
                The gurus have spoken. And, I hear you. I won't be trimming the HC-12s. I do intend to use them. Will be happy to give them the space if they sound good.

                Best placement is not clear to me. Have two configurations that I want to try. Each one has the speakers in opposite corners of the room, room is 12 feet wide. I can put one on top of the other, or side by side at ceiling height. Should they be placed channels 1, 2, 3, 4 left to right, or is it better to mix them 1, 3, 2, 4?

                Sam
                Sam

                Allen ADC5400, 1910 Chickering QuarterGrand
                Past---Allen ADC4000, Galanti Praeludium II, Yamaha Clavinova, Hammond A102, W.W. Putnam Reed Organ

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think the best arrangement may be driven by how the organ signals are divided. Stereo signals might favor separated stereo pairs.

                  But experimentation may help you find another arrangement.

                  BO
                  Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                  Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                  Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                  We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                  Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                  I'm a Methodist organist.
                  I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                  Became a Technology Specialist.
                  Retired from Education after 32 years.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sam,

                    Since Allen ADC audio is not "stereo" like some organ brands, but consists of discrete channels that carry only certain stops, I think it's best to keep the two channels of a given division fairly close together for the sake of cohesion, and so that the celeste stops will beat properly. So, I'd at least try it first with 1 and 2 in the same corner and 3 and 4 in another corner. How high off the floor doesn't really matter, though you may prefer the sound one way or the other after you try it.

                    The other way, putting one swell and one great/pedal speaker in each corner, might give you an interesting "spread" to each division, with some stops in each chorus on each side, so it's worth a listen. 12 feet apart is not enough to hurt the cohesion or the celeste beating, especially in a home setting. So try it both ways and see what you like.

                    I think it's all a matter of taste and opinion anyway.
                    John
                    ----------
                    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                      Since Allen ADC audio is not "stereo" like some organ brands, but consists of discrete channels that carry only certain stops, I think it's best to keep the two channels of a given division fairly close together for the sake of cohesion, and so that the celeste stops will beat properly. So, I'd at least try it first with 1 and 2 in the same corner and 3 and 4 in another corner. How high off the floor doesn't really matter, though you may prefer the sound one way or the other after you try it.
                      Sam,

                      I forgot what Allen Organ you have, so I post the following without knowing your organ.

                      I agree with John's post, but with one caveat. Do you have an MOS-2 organ? If so, I believe the channels are 1 & 4 for half of each manual, and 2 & 3 for the other half of each manual. Therefore, you should place Channels 1 & 4 on one side of the space, and Channels 2 & 3 on the other side--if you really need to split them up.

                      Channel 3 is the celeste channel for Channel 2 stops when placed together in pairs, and Channel 4 is the celeste channel for Channel 1 stops when placed together. Since the Pedals don't celeste, they are evenly split between Channels 2 & 3. On my MOS-2 505B, the 32' Pedal stops and half the 16' stops come out of Channel 2, while half of the other come out of Channel 3. Somewhere, I have the channel split, if you need to see it--but make sure you have a MOS-2 organ first.

                      Michael

                      P.S. If you have an ADC organ, then ignore what I said above.:-P
                      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                      • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Michael, Thanks but it's ADC4000. Swell is on channels 1& 2, Great on 3 & 4.

                        Sam
                        Sam

                        Allen ADC5400, 1910 Chickering QuarterGrand
                        Past---Allen ADC4000, Galanti Praeludium II, Yamaha Clavinova, Hammond A102, W.W. Putnam Reed Organ

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by samzer View Post
                          Michael, Thanks but it's ADC4000. Swell is on channels 1& 2, Great on 3 & 4.
                          Sorry, Sam. I forgot!:embarrassed: It's a sign of old age.:'(
                          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                          • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            =-O
                            Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                            Sorry, Sam. I forgot!:embarrassed: It's a sign of old age.:'(
                            Wouldn't know about old age. I'm only 72. Know less and less every day!

                            Sam
                            Sam

                            Allen ADC5400, 1910 Chickering QuarterGrand
                            Past---Allen ADC4000, Galanti Praeludium II, Yamaha Clavinova, Hammond A102, W.W. Putnam Reed Organ

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by michaelhoddy View Post
                              are full-range and can do okay with 16' stops in small rooms
                              Small rooms place a limit on success at profound frequencies, regardless of how good the speaker system is. It's a matter of basic physics. Sounds reflect off walls in reverse phase, having the effect of reducing the level of the sounds. The only remedy it to increase the size of the room!

                              I have posted in similar fashion before, with no response (accidental pun) whatsoever, in a related thread.

                              John Reimer

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