time-semsitive fault manifesting on 2004 Allen Protégé

[stephenphillips]

Hello, I have acquired an ex-church Allen, model Protégé and the CPU has the name Renaissance II. It was manufactured 2 April 2004. No internal speakers - speaker wires have been connected to external 8-ohm units.

Some interesting if frustrating issues that may be familiar to some forum reader. Basically, the organ turns on OK, but after a time (see below) a range of odd behaviours manifest, the most obvious being the fairly quick repeated flashing of console lights and other indicator lights. Sometimes, left on and to its own devices, the organ 'resets' itself and appears to behave normally, other times, not. The information below is from the most recent 'test', with reference to earlier ones:

The flashing display, power LED and music desk light (possible pedal light as well but I didn't look) started after 5:58 that is five minutes and fifty-eight seconds after switching on.

The flashing included:

a) green power LED

b) console controller display

c) music desk light

d) accompanied by sound like a relay operating in sync with the flashing lights and through all four speakers - a popping sound but both swell shoes were closed so not loud.

Switched power off at 9:52 as the organ had not re-set itself as it had last time the problem occurred that was by my reckoning at double the time it took today to fault and only a minute or so to reset.

After three minutes power was again switch on and only the organ controller display flashed.


Inside console inspection.

Main power supply green LED constant.

Board that has MIDI in, out and through as well as a symbol for connection to a computer green LED flashing.

CPU all six LEDs flashing.


Orange Standby power

Green Main power

Orange HBEAT

Orange Network

Red Network fault

Red Fault


After five minutes organ switched on and it went straight to the above.
After 10 minutes the organ turned on as normal and was played for a couple of minutes maximum, (estimated not timed) and the fault returned.

Note that a relay-like sound was heard in the vicinity of the CPU but this only lasted a short while (not timed but less that half a minute and the only sound then was from the speakers.

There is an AC hum coming from the CPU unit. Light throughout these tests but it had been said to increase after 20 minutes playing until it became unbearable in the organ's former church-environment home.

Any insights into the possible causes for and correction of this behaviour would be most welcome.

Yours,

Stephen.

[tucsondave]

Model number?

[jbird604]

Sounds to me like the power supply is your problem. It's the large metal assembly in the floor of the console with many cables coming out the top. PS-8 or PS-10? I don't think there is anything else in the organ that feeds all the stuff you are talking about. An MN board failure would not produce relay clicking or blinking of console lights, and a failure inside the Ren II cage would only cause some kind of stop problem.

The constantly-glowing green LED on the power supply itself indicates nothing except that the AC power is on. But I bet if you put a scope or voltmeter on the various outputs such as the +12 and -12 and +5 you would find one or more of them wildly fluctuating.

There have in fact been some problems with the power supplies in the Renaissance models built about that time. It's too bad the original owner didn't have it replaced under the warranty, which only expired last year. Now it's gonna cost you quite a bit of money.

Before you spend a lot of money on it, make absolutely sure that there isn't something loose inside somewhere. There could even be a connector on the power supply, or one of the power distribution terminal strips, that wasn't properly snugged down at the factory. The only thing that goes against this theory is that the organ seems to play OK for a while, then fails when it gets warm. That points to an actual failure inside the supply.

A very competent and careful tech MIGHT be able to troubleshoot and repair the power supply without resorting to an exchange from Allen. Exchanging it would get your a warranty on the new part, but would probably cost around $1000, possibly more, depending on where you live and how much the labor runs.

But I wouldn't keep trying to play it like that. The obviously erratic power supply output could damage some of the other parts, and they are VERY expensive.

Nice organ though. I'd dearly love to get hold of a used Renaissance, working or not! Certainly work fixing. I think almost any used Ren II organ, even the smaller self-contained, will go for $10K or more at a dealership these days.

[indianajo]

Okay, the expert has spoken. I was thinking it sounded like a thermal heating problem in the power supply, or power up reset circuit.
The most common part that exhibits this sort of failure warm symptom, is the electrolytic cap. You could probably replace every electrolytic cap in the power supply, without thinking too much, for <$50 in parts and $70 in tools. I don't recommend diagnosis of a switcher supply with the power on, unless previously experienced on simpler circuits. Switcher supplies contain lethal voltages and require VERY careful use of a probe to not blow other things up or shock yourself. That is assuming you follow the rules about one hand at a time, and a clip lead on negative. If you use two hands, you can easily shock your heart stopped with a switcher supply power on or off. Read the safety sticky thread and pay attention to discharging stored voltage on all e-caps with the tool specified before measuring or changing, or touching metal.
If the switcher supply uses surface mount parts, you need a $700 workstation to repair it IMHO, plus a magnifying viewing device for seeing it, plus a panavise to hold it still. In that technology, you should think about getting a pro to repair it, as amortizing those tools with more than one job is not likely.
Another possiblity in the supply is a cold solder joint. This is a much more time consuming repair, and any multileg IC's are almost impossible to resolder by hand without bridging 2 legs . The factory probably uses the wave solder process.
A third possibility is replace the supply with an industrial one. 1. find the wires out that the power goes to (+-5, +-12, +-15, +24, are very standard voltages across the electronics industry) 2. splice in wires from another industrial supply with those voltages 3. remove the Allen supply. I find Power-One supplies are industrial grade and are relatively inexpensive- I've used them in the snack food plant 2000-2008, and the refrigerator plant before that. They are sold by Newark.com
This is an expensive organ with resale value. You might just bite the bullet and call the Allen man on this. I don't play in the hobby at this price level. Being surplus to manufacturer's requirements, I'm repairing a $100 analog organ today for my own hobby. Very nasty looking 1975 e-caps.
If you're serious about the replacing caps trick, and this device still uses leaded components, see this thread: http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...146#post280146
If the boards have surface mount components, you could look at diyaudio.com the tools forum, and read some threads about working on surface mount components without breaking the bank. There is also a cheap surface mount work thread under solid state amps foru. You have to have good near vision or a vision tool. My eyes are getting too old to be any good at that part of the craft. Besides, there are plenty of old leaded organs and other junk around here for me to repair, play, perform on.
Best of luck.

[jbird604]

As I-Joe says, power supply repair is not brain surgery, and a competent tech can handle it, though few of us (certainly not me) want to repair any surface-mount devices, or even any kind of a switching-mode power supply, of which this is one, at least the 5 volt leg. But if it turned out to be nothing more than a bad capacitor, the repair would certainly be cheap and easy.

I-Joe also mentions the potential for replacing the supply with commercially available units. If you have technical skills, you might manage to do that and save a lot of money. I wouldn't want to be the one to recommend it, given the value of the organ, but I'll say it can probably be done.

The PS-10 is probably the supply you'll find the floor of the console. If so, that happens to be the simplest of the Renaissance supplies, and outputs nothing more than the typical +5, +12, and -12 volts. There is a secondary +12 that is "isolated" from the others, according to the schematic, that is used to drive relays. But I'm thinking a typical inexpensive "ATX" computer power supply of the type you can buy for $30 probably supplies all the current the organ needs. It's probably possible for a competent tech or earnest tinkerer to actually replace the supply that is hidden in that gold-colored box with a standard computer supply, running the appropriate voltage wires to the existing connectors on top of the supply, so that it continues to look and connect just like the original.

I'll once again say that I'm NOT recommending this, but a super CAREFUL tech could do it. A year or two ago, we were working at a church on an expensive digital carillon system that had gone dead. I found the power supply was not outputting anything. It was marked to show that it delivered the typical +5, +12, and -12 voltages. I picked up an inexpensive ATX computer supply from MCM or somewhere for maybe $25, and it worked perfectly, hasn't missed a beat in two years, and it's left on day and night 24/7.

That said, I have NEVER used an off-the-shelf supply in a nearly-new Allen organ. So you do what your heart tells you is right!

I'd prefer to see you call on your local Allen tech and let him handle it properly with factory-supplied parts, even though it may cost you quite a bit of money. At least you shouldn't have any trouble getting a tech who will work on Renaissance, since that technology is current. It's a bit harder to find a tech who is willing to tackle an older Allen these days, but Renaissance is easy.

Your organ is certainly worth the cost of keeping it properly repaired.

[indianajo]

The PS-10 is probably the supply you'll find the floor of the console. If so, that happens to be the simplest of the Renaissance supplies, and outputs nothing more than the typical +5, +12, and -12 volts. There is a secondary +12 that is "isolated" from the others, according to the schematic, that is used to drive relays. But I'm thinking a typical inexpensive "ATX" computer power supply of the type you can buy for $30 probably supplies all the current the organ needs. It's probably possible for a competent tech or earnest tinkerer to actually replace the supply that is hidden in that gold-colored box with a standard computer supply, running the appropriate voltage wires to the existing connectors on top of the supply, so that it continues to look and connect just like the original.

I'll once again say that I'm NOT recommending this, but a super CAREFUL tech could do it. A year or two ago, we were working at a church on an expensive digital carillon system that had gone dead. I found the power supply was not outputting anything. It was marked to show that it delivered the typical +5, +12, and -12 voltages. I picked up an inexpensive ATX computer supply from MCM or somewhere for maybe $25, and it worked perfectly, hasn't missed a beat in two years, and it's left on day and night 24/7.

I've replaced the ATX supply for failure in my personal PC 6 times in about 15 years. The ones I've bought have the vilest grade e-caps in them and the heat sinking on the FET is marginal. One or the other takes them out, if the optoisolator doesn't vaporize. By contrast Power one supplies when properly rated lasted 12 to 15 years in packaging machines running 16 hours four to seven days a week. Look at the Power one MPB-125-3003g from Mouser.com, 125 W, 15 A 5 v, 5A each +-12 v. $90 three years ago when the catalog was published.
It is up to the installer to check the fusing or wire gauge and determine if this is big enough to fit his needs.

[stephenphillips]

Many thanks to all responders, for all the valuable advice received.

I have taken the matter up with an Allen-savvy tech; hopefully the organ will regain its sanity in the very near future.

Cheers,

Stephen.